[PGT] Flames 5 Ducks 1

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

In a league where Seattle, LA, and Dallas are top 10 in goals for I really struggle to believe that this team lacks the talent or skill to do so.

I really don't think effort is the issue either. This team is playing exactly how it's being asked to.

Well they're being asked to carry the play. Seems like a good plan.

Sutter is frustrating me too, but we can't just ignore all the stats that say the Flames are a competitive team on a night to night basis pretty much all season.

[icarus]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Definitely the most painful season to watch in 40+ years of Flames hockey.

Jesus. Well I can think of some more painful seasons. Imagine a defence corps of Todd Simpson, Cale Hulse, Chris O'Sullivan, Tommy Albelin, James Patrick and older than dirt Phil Housley.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by icarus

Jesus. Well I can think of some more painful seasons. Imagine a defence corps of Todd Simpson, Cale Hulse, Chris O'Sullivan, Tommy Albelin, James Patrick and older than dirt Phil Housley.

Relative to expectations those were better / more enjoyable actually.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

In a league where Seattle, LA, and Dallas are top 10 in goals for I really struggle to believe that this team lacks the talent or skill to do so.

I really don't think effort is the issue either. This team is playing exactly how it's being asked to.

You struggle with why these teams are doing well this year, but the answer is clear - they have a couple of elite players producing at a high level versus a cast of decent players that the Flames have.

Warrener touched on this the other day and really hit the mark: "Who on this Flames team gets you out of your seat or is a player that kids want to come watch and put names of on their jersey?"

I'd say there really isn't a single player that has that true high skill wow factor of past seasons. There are several really good players on this team for sure, but it isn't a coincidence that the team is struggling to win games or go on a run when they don't have a truly elite, unquestioned first line player at any position this year. This is also why the team just can't consistently win in OT - you need elite players who are able to create plays and step up when games are tight.

It's a skill league and teams with 1 scorer in the top 60 are not going to be able to do it by committee every single night. Work ethic will only take you so far. This team needed new players like Huberdeau and Kadri to produce so much more offensively than they were able to this season in order to have success. Some of this is certainly on coaching (and goaltending earlier), but for me, a lot of this is on the players for not finding their A game on enough nights when the majority of the team was rolling.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

You struggle with why these teams are doing well this year, but the answer is clear - they have a couple of elite players producing at a high level versus a cast of decent players that the Flames have.

Warrener touched on this the other day and really hit the mark: "Who on this Flames team gets you out of your seat or is a player that kids want to come watch and put names of on their jersey?"

I'd say there really isn't a single player that has that true high skill wow factor of past seasons. There are several really good players on this team for sure, but it isn't a coincidence that the team is struggling to win games or go on a run when they don't have a truly elite, unquestioned first line player at any position this year. This is also why the team just can't consistently win in OT - you need elite players who are able to create plays and step up when games are tight.

It's a skill league and teams with 1 scorer in the top 60 are not going to be able to do it by committee every single night.

The only player on those three teams that you can make a case for being elite offensively is Jason Robertson, and that is a roster that just last season struggled immensely to score goals. You know what changed? The coach and their approach to creating offense.

I absolutely agree with you that it's a skill driven league. Darryl Sutter should probably be advised of such.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

You struggle with why these teams are doing well this year, but the answer is clear - they have a couple of elite players producing at a high level versus a cast of decent players that the Flames have.

.

well the Kraken's top 3 scorers are Vince Dunn, McCann (having a great year) and Eberle


yes Beniers is going to be special- but the Flames have guys that can- or should, or have- been mentioned in the same breath as Eberle or McCann


elite skill is the easiest way to get there, but there are other types of team construction that lead to more offence that whatever we are seeing from Calgary this year

[peter12]

Honestly, this team is so ####ing streaky.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

You struggle with why these teams are doing well this year, but the answer is clear - they have a couple of elite players producing at a high level versus a cast of decent players that the Flames have.

Warrener touched on this the other day and really hit the mark: "Who on this Flames team gets you out of your seat or is a player that kids want to come watch and put names of on their jersey?"

I'd say there really isn't a single player that has that true high skill wow factor of past seasons. There are several really good players on this team for sure, but it isn't a coincidence that the team is struggling to win games or go on a run when they don't have a truly elite, unquestioned first line player at any position this year. This is also why the team just can't consistently win in OT - you need elite players who are able to create plays and step up when games are tight.

It's a skill league and teams with 1 scorer in the top 60 are not going to be able to do it by committee every single night. Work ethic will only take you so far.

Dallas has a couple of those players in Robertson and Heiskanen...but Im not sure Seattle or LA do.

I don't think Fiala / Kopitar / Kempe are any better than Lindholm / Toffoli / Huberdeau

I don't think McCann / Eberle / Beniers are head and shoulders better than Lindholm / Toffoli / Huberdeau either.

The Flames roster has the talent and skill to be a top 5 team in the Western Conference...that's not debatable IMO.

They just haven't played up to their potential this year.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

The only player on those three teams that you can make a case for being elite offensively is Jason Robertson, and that is a roster that just last season struggled immensely to score goals. You know what changed? The coach and their approach to creating offense.

I absolutely agree with you that it's a skill driven league. Darryl Sutter should probably be advised of such.

Dallas has 3+ players at, over or near a PPG to go with a stellar supporting cast. LA is also in the same mix with Fiala and Kopitar producing at a high PPG level at the top of their mix.

The Flames have a great supporting cast, but the one difference - the high end players aren't hitting a level where they are consistently, if ever, showing signs of dominance.

Blame it all on the coach if you want, but Flames fans should be well aware that changing the coach only goes so far. As we all saw last year, there is plenty of room in this system for an elite player to give much more offensively than anyone outside of Toffoli is showing.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Dallas has a couple of those players in Robertson and Heiskanen...but Im not sure Seattle or LA do.

I don't think Fiala / Kopitar / Kempe are any better than Lindholm / Toffoli / Huberdeau

I don't think McCann / Eberle / Beniers are head and shoulders better than Lindholm / Toffoli / Huberdeau either.

The Flames roster has the talent and skill to be a top 5 team in the Western Conference...that's not debatable IMO.

They just haven't played up to their potential this year.

I only disagree with your point on their potential. You can certainly make a case for these Flames players, on paper. But all we have to look at right now is results, and I know I would take a lot of these teams top scorers over the Flames top scorers if given the choice this year.

This team as a group has played good enough hockey to be in the playoffs this year. The difference is very miniscule and comes down to not getting some saves earlier in the season, and not being able to come up with a big goal when games are on the line.

You tell me if that should be attributed to coaching or more so on players well below their averages or who have not even been close to a level that would positively effect game outcomes. The staff (which won a coach of the year award last season) isn't so inept that it is submarining the season with terrible decisions and outdated tactics. The vast majority of this teams losses were within reach and decided by a single goal.....to me that indicates a player performance issue as the key and deciding reason as to why this season is sinking.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by peter12

Honestly, this team is so ####ing streaky.

True but their streaks only last two games.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by peter12

Honestly, this team is so ####ing streaky.

They can't do anything long enough to make it a streak

They're bipolar.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

The only player on those three teams that you can make a case for being elite offensively is Jason Robertson, and that is a roster that just last season struggled immensely to score goals. You know what changed? The coach and their approach to creating offense.

I absolutely agree with you that it's a skill driven league. Darryl Sutter should probably be advised of such.

Last year was the same coach, but a team with two 100+ point players and a Vezina candidate goalie. This year it's a team where no player will finish close to even a ppg pace, and a starting goalie with a .889 save percentage.

The stars to worry about aren't the ones in Dallas.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by peter12

Honestly, this team is so ####ing shi##y.

fyp.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

You tell me if that should be attributed to coaching or more so on players well below their averages or who have not even been close to a level that would positively effect game outcomes. The staff (which won a coach of the year award last season) isn't so inept that it is submarining the season with terrible decisions and outdated tactics. The vast majority of this teams losses were within reach and decided by a single goal.....to me that indicates a player performance issue as the key and deciding reason as to why this season is sinking.

Personally I do attribute most of the blame to the coaching staff. From the very onset of the season the man in charge has consistently driven home the narrative that this team lacks the talent to play a skill game and as such has them playing that way.

Huberdeau literally just came off a season where he was the driving force behind what was the NHL's most potent offensive team in Modern Era history. He is also the player that led the entire NHL in OT scoring last year, and has been a top three powerplay producer over the previous four years. To say he doesn't have that ability is pure fiction.

Do you think it's a coincidence that this team has yet to have a third period comeback this year and is historically poor in 3 on 3 OT? I don't. They don't have the confidence or ability to open things up as a result of playing a system that relies on shot volume, straight lines, and that is complete risk averse when it comes to puck management. It's so engrained into their playstyle and mindsets that it becomes incredibly difficult for them to collectively flip that switch when it's needed.

I watch a player like Jason Robertson and see a guy who truly isn't all that dissimilar to Huberdeau (albeit it goalscorer vs playmaker). Neither is a great skater. Neither is a pure play driver. These are guys that don't singularly take over shifts on end, nor consistently notice for 60 minutes only for them to end up with three points on the night. Yes, I know some of you will point to his beautiful OT goal a few games ago and say that Huberdeau can't do that - but his play in Florida heavily suggests otherwise. Sutter needed to show more of an understanding of the skillsets the new acquisitions brought, and a willingness to allow them to play to their strengths. This didn't happen, and it's nothing new under Darryl. It's his way or no way at all, and based on recent results, that's not a good thing (just six playoff wins in his last six NHL seasons).

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by icarus

Jesus. Well I can think of some more painful seasons. Imagine a defence corps of Todd Simpson, Cale Hulse, Chris O'Sullivan, Tommy Albelin, James Patrick and older than dirt Phil Housley.

And we knew they were going to suck, so it wasn't that bad. This team is good enough and has more than enough talent to be a threat, yet we're watching some of the worst and most boring crap hockey in the history of the team. Expectations come into play here IMO.

[Sylvanfan]

This is a frustrating team no doubt. Reminds me a lot of Brent Sutters first year as coach.

But it's not the worst season ever. Watching a defence that scored 9 goals all year was painfull.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

I only disagree with your point on their potential. You can certainly make a case for these Flames players, on paper. But all we have to look at right now is results, and I know I would take a lot of these teams top scorers over the Flames top scorers if given the choice this year.

This team as a group has played good enough hockey to be in the playoffs this year. The difference is very miniscule and comes down to not getting some saves earlier in the season, and not being able to come up with a big goal when games are on the line.

You tell me if that should be attributed to coaching or more so on players well below their averages or who have not even been close to a level that would positively effect game outcomes. The staff (which won a coach of the year award last season) isn't so inept that it is submarining the season with terrible decisions and outdated tactics. The vast majority of this teams losses were within reach and decided by a single goal.....to me that indicates a player performance issue as the key and deciding reason as to why this season is sinking.

It’s a group effort to do what the Flames have done this year.

- shakey goaltending
- shakey D zone coverage
- atrocious shooting percentages
- disgraceful powerplay results.

That points to a lot of things. Not just one.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Goriders

It’s a group effort to do what the Flames have done this year.

- shakey goaltending
- shakey D zone coverage
- atrocious shooting percentages
- disgraceful powerplay results.

That points to a lot of things. Not just one.

Actually, outside of goaltending, all of those can be directly attributed to coaching philosophy, tactics, and motivation. You could even say that 1 and 2 are intrinsically linked.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Sutter is frustrating me too, but we can't just ignore all the stats that say the Flames are a competitive team on a night to night basis pretty much all season.

The key in this argument to me though is that the margin of “teams who are competitive on a night to night basis” vs. “teams who win consistently” is insignificant, but also a chasm in the NHL. Effort hasn’t been something I’ve questioned all season - and I think that’s credit to both Sutter and the players.

The true difference makers that switch a team from being competitive nightly to winning nightly, monthly, and yearly are near-impossible to acquire - which is why I’m unshockingly banging the “burn it down, rebuild it” drum yet again. We don’t have enough skill at the important positions to become a top team in this league. We may get some more bounces, and some players may go on heaters, but at the core we don’t have what is needed to have enough things consistently go right to give the team a shot at winning it all.