[PGT] Flames lose 8-2 to the Kings

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Sec214

If huberdeau and Kadri don’t like playing for sutter. They can request to mutually terminate their contracts… just saying

Kadri I could see stewing all summer and coming back pissed off and determined and having a great season. Not sure how Huberdeau will handle it.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by nik-

We should be more worried about the paychecks the coaching staff is stealing.

... and the GM at this point.

Yeah, I get it the coach sucks, but their pay doesn't dramatically effect the team's cap structure for 8 more years. This is the decade of Huberdeau.

[Kickazzflames]

Man what a year. This stinker of a game will likely be the end of any hope. 9-2 is likely what's needed to make it and there has been no indication that this team can win when it matters.

This season is such a anomaly in the way that we have seen this team dominate periods with puck procession and play a high pressure Sutter style. And yet we don't see the results. Why is that? Why are we not as good as the media said we were when we made that trade? Why are we not top of the NHL like the Vegas odds said we would be?

The Sutter system keeps the games close and relies on the best players on your team to win the games. So what went wrong? Well we got some of the worst goaltending this year that we have seen in a long time. We lost two superstar players and replaced them with one (Huberdeau) and two strong supporting players (Kadri, Weegar). We no longer have the best 5 on 5 line in the league. We still desperately needed a scoring top 6 winger, no slight against Toffoli who has impressed me the most this season by far. But we needed someone who can bury the puck more often at 5 on 5.

15 OT / shootout losses is the biggest reason we are sitting outside. Slightly better goaltending and a little bit more from our best players and we would be comfortably in a playoff spot.

I literally cannot point my finger at Sutter and say this is all his fault. Sure he has made some strange line decisions, but you also have to work with players performing far below expectations. I am not one that is ready to go back to the revolving coach door that has plagued this team forever, unless we are ready to rebuild.

There is a terrifying realization creeping into many fans and it's that this off season likely was the worst turning point for this franchise. Losing two of your best draft picks you have ever made, then signing long term, high paid contracts for the replacement pieces. Tre pulled off a wizard move with the trade, but followed it with what could be the biggest mistake for the next 7-8 years. But can we fully blame Tre? We only had two choices... sign the guys long term to try to keep the cup/competitive window open, or to hold onto them as UFA's until the trade deadline and start a rebuild going into one of the strongest drafts.

We now are stuck going down the cup/competitive window and if our best players can't find their game or play to at least what's expected of them with their contracts we are in for a LONG 7-8 years of classic flames mediocrity, regardless of what we do with our front office or bench management.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Yeah, I get it the coach sucks, but their pay doesn't dramatically effect the team's cap structure for 8 more years. This is the decade of Huberdeau.

It is, but it's also not just one player, it's basically everyone. The coach is doing more damage to this franchise than any player at the moment.

[SuperMatt18]

It's okay to be frustrated with Huberdeau's production but I still see a guy who is committed on the ice.

I don't think Huberdeau has stopped trying or pouted on the ice at all. He's worked hard, has tried to add more of a physical element, and has committed to playing defense. Also has been good with the media, and off the ice with his Huby's Hangout initiative.

He just hasn't fit with the offensive structure this team is employing and has struggled to generate offense because of that.

I expect him to have a bounce back season next year, and he might even with Sutter still as coach too.

Now Kadri on the other hand...that guy looks ready to either be on the first plane out of Calgary and wants nothing to do with Sutter.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Kickazzflames

Man what a year. This stinker of a game will likely be the end of any hope. 9-2 is likely what's needed to make it and there has been no indication that this team can win when it matters.

This season is such a anomaly in the way that we have seen this team dominate periods with puck procession and play a high pressure Sutter style. And yet we don't see the results. Why is that? Why are we not as good as the media said we were when we made that trade? Why are we not top of the NHL like the Vegas odds said we would be?

The Sutter system keeps the games close and relies on the best players on your team to win the games. So what went wrong? Well we got some of the worst goaltending this year that we have seen in a long time. We lost two superstar players and replaced them with one (Huberdeau) and two strong supporting players (Kadri, Weegar). We no longer have the best 5 on 5 line in the league. We still desperately needed a scoring top 6 winger, no slight against Toffoli who has impressed me the most this season by far. But we needed someone who can bury the puck more often at 5 on 5.

15 OT / shootout losses is the biggest reason we are sitting outside. Slightly better goaltending and a little bit more from our best players and we would be comfortably in a playoff spot.

I literally cannot point my finger at Sutter and say this is all his fault. Sure he has made some strange line decisions, but you also have to work with players performing far below expectations. I am not one that is ready to go back to the revolving coach door that has plagued this team forever, unless we are ready to rebuild.

There is a terrifying realization creeping into many fans and it's that this off season likely was the worst turning point for this franchise. Losing two of your best draft picks you have ever made, then signing long term, high paid contracts for the replacement pieces. Tre pulled off a wizard move with the trade, but followed it with what could be the biggest mistake for the next 7-8 years. But can we fully blame Tre? We only had two choices... sign the guys long term to try to keep the cup/competitive window open, or to hold onto them as UFA's until the trade deadline and start a rebuild going into one of the strongest drafts.

We now are stuck going down the cup/competitive window and if our best players can't find their game or play to at least what's expected of them with their contracts we are in for a LONG 7-8 years of classic flames mediocrity, regardless of what we do with our front office or bench management.

This sums it up nicely!

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Saqe

Well technically he wasn't an UFA but he was in his last year so he could negotiate a new deal, which happens with players of his caliber generally as soon as possible. Which also was in his favor because of the monster year he had that was a total anomaly for him and was very unlikely to repeat. Also to get that 8th year included that Calgary could offer.

It was a career year - but it wasn't some type of unheard of season for him.

Huberdeau

18-19: 1.12 PPG
19-20: 1.13 PPG
20-21: 1.11 PPG
21-22: 1.43 PPG

Gaudreau

18-19: 1.20 PPG
19-20: 0.83 PPG
20-21: 0.88 PPG
21-22: 1.40 PPG

Tkachuk

18-19: 0.96 PPG
19-20: 0.88 PPG
20-21: 0.77 PPG
21-22: 1.27 PPG

It was no more of an "anamoly" than Gaudreau's or Tkachuk's 21-22 seasons were at the time. If anything at that point Gaudreau's and Tkachuk's seasons were more of an outlier than Huberdeau's was.

If anything is the anamoly it's Huberdeau's season this year.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Kickazzflames

Man what a year. This stinker of a game will likely be the end of any hope. 9-2 is likely what's needed to make it and there has been no indication that this team can win when it matters.

This season is such a anomaly in the way that we have seen this team dominate periods with puck procession and play a high pressure Sutter style. And yet we don't see the results. Why is that? Why are we not as good as the media said we were when we made that trade? Why are we not top of the NHL like the Vegas odds said we would be?

The Sutter system keeps the games close and relies on the best players on your team to win the games. So what went wrong? Well we got some of the worst goaltending this year that we have seen in a long time. We lost two superstar players and replaced them with one (Huberdeau) and two strong supporting players (Kadri, Weegar). We no longer have the best 5 on 5 line in the league. We still desperately needed a scoring top 6 winger, no slight against Toffoli who has impressed me the most this season by far. But we needed someone who can bury the puck more often at 5 on 5.

15 OT / shootout losses is the biggest reason we are sitting outside. Slightly better goaltending and a little bit more from our best players and we would be comfortably in a playoff spot.

I literally cannot point my finger at Sutter and say this is all his fault. Sure he has made some strange line decisions, but you also have to work with players performing far below expectations. I am not one that is ready to go back to the revolving coach door that has plagued this team forever, unless we are ready to rebuild.

There is a terrifying realization creeping into many fans and it's that this off season likely was the worst turning point for this franchise. Losing two of your best draft picks you have ever made, then signing long term, high paid contracts for the replacement pieces. Tre pulled off a wizard move with the trade, but followed it with what could be the biggest mistake for the next 7-8 years. But can we fully blame Tre? We only had two choices... sign the guys long term to try to keep the cup/competitive window open, or to hold onto them as UFA's until the trade deadline and start a rebuild going into one of the strongest drafts.

We now are stuck going down the cup/competitive window and if our best players can't find their game or play to at least what's expected of them with their contracts we are in for a LONG 7-8 years of classic flames mediocrity, regardless of what we do with our front office or bench management.

Good post. The context of the situation that Treliving faced is also paramount to the discussion.

Gaudreau- not signed long-term, pays lip service to the 11th hour, leaves the Flames without assets salvaged and is their best player leaving in free agency.

Treliving makes a great trade to land a prized 115 point player, and wasn't going to make that same mistake again. Yet, in doing so, he made an even bigger mistake.

What's worse, a) signing an 8 year deal where the guy is overpaid by 100% or b) letting a high profile UFA walk.

I think in the age of the salary cap, a) is worse and a bigger mistake than b), because with b), you can actually make moves as a GM and your hands aren't tied which leads me to my next point:

Part of the issue at hand is Calgary as a market. Looking back at last year's trade deadline, theoretically the Flames should have looked to trade Gaudreau. Recoup some assets. Understand if he will sign with you or not in January, not in July. Give him a legitimate deadline, to understand what moves you can make to maximize value. I even said so at the time and got lambasted on this site. The alternative was said player getting us to round 2, but that's it. Good franchises maximize asset value over the long-term regardless of current position because that's how you become a Tampa, Boston, leveraging assets and being unafraid to make difficult decisions in tough scenarios. Gaudreau should have been traded- absolutely after the season ended; even for a late pick to somebody to sign before FA. Would the fans and Calgary have let that happen? Absolutely not.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

It was a career year - but it wasn't some type of unheard of season for him.

Huberdeau

18-19: 1.12 PPG
19-20: 1.13 PPG
20-21: 1.11 PPG
21-22: 1.43 PPG

Gaudreau

18-19: 1.20 PPG
19-20: 0.83 PPG
20-21: 0.88 PPG
21-22: 1.40 PPG

Tkachuk

18-19: 0.96 PPG
19-20: 0.88 PPG
20-21: 0.77 PPG
21-22: 1.27 PPG

It was no more of an "anamoly" than Gaudreau's or Tkachuk's 21-22 seasons were at the time. If anything at that point Gaudreau's and Tkachuk's seasons were more of an outlier than Huberdeau's was.

If anything is the anamoly it's Huberdeau's season this year.

I would disagree, it's about a 25% bump of production for Huberdeau from the previous five years. Now you can say it was also the same for Gaudreau and Tkachuk if you like but doesn't change that it's a significant bump. Gaudreau had that 1.20 PPG season previously but yeah, it looks like he had a pretty significant increase compared to his average production. But Tkachuk got a bump in linemates last year and is showing that he can actually produce the same in Florida now. Also just entering his prime so comparing his first years in the league vs. other players prime years isn't really fair to him.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

It was a career year - but it wasn't some type of unheard of season for him.

Huberdeau

18-19: 1.12 PPG
19-20: 1.13 PPG
20-21: 1.11 PPG
21-22: 1.43 PPG

Gaudreau

18-19: 1.20 PPG
19-20: 0.83 PPG
20-21: 0.88 PPG
21-22: 1.40 PPG

Tkachuk

18-19: 0.96 PPG
19-20: 0.88 PPG
20-21: 0.77 PPG
21-22: 1.27 PPG

It was no more of an "anamoly" than Gaudreau's or Tkachuk's 21-22 seasons were at the time. If anything at that point Gaudreau's and Tkachuk's seasons were more of an outlier than Huberdeau's was.

If anything is the anamoly it's Huberdeau's season this year.

I would suggest that based on the age of the player when it occurred, Tkachuk's year was less likely to be an outlier.

Which is the very reason why Florida wanted to gamble the long term big contract on the very young player vs. Huberdeau.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

Kadri I could see stewing all summer and coming back pissed off and determined and having a great season. Not sure how Huberdeau will handle it.

I eagerly await the next round of excuses and whining.
- shocked at trade
- cgy different than the beach and had to swap sports car for a pickup
- playing with right handlers
- playing on right side
- not having fun, coach is a meanie

He’s a talented guy. He isn’t a player to lead a team, to drive the offence. Unfortunately, he’ll be paid as a franchise forward for almost a decade

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Kickazzflames

Man what a year. This stinker of a game will likely be the end of any hope. 9-2 is likely what's needed to make it and there has been no indication that this team can win when it matters.

This season is such a anomaly in the way that we have seen this team dominate periods with puck procession and play a high pressure Sutter style. And yet we don't see the results. Why is that? Why are we not as good as the media said we were when we made that trade? Why are we not top of the NHL like the Vegas odds said we would be?

The Sutter system keeps the games close and relies on the best players on your team to win the games. So what went wrong? Well we got some of the worst goaltending this year that we have seen in a long time. We lost two superstar players and replaced them with one (Huberdeau) and two strong supporting players (Kadri, Weegar). We no longer have the best 5 on 5 line in the league. We still desperately needed a scoring top 6 winger, no slight against Toffoli who has impressed me the most this season by far. But we needed someone who can bury the puck more often at 5 on 5.

15 OT / shootout losses is the biggest reason we are sitting outside. Slightly better goaltending and a little bit more from our best players and we would be comfortably in a playoff spot.

I literally cannot point my finger at Sutter and say this is all his fault. Sure he has made some strange line decisions, but you also have to work with players performing far below expectations. I am not one that is ready to go back to the revolving coach door that has plagued this team forever, unless we are ready to rebuild.

There is a terrifying realization creeping into many fans and it's that this off season likely was the worst turning point for this franchise. Losing two of your best draft picks you have ever made, then signing long term, high paid contracts for the replacement pieces. Tre pulled off a wizard move with the trade, but followed it with what could be the biggest mistake for the next 7-8 years. But can we fully blame Tre? We only had two choices... sign the guys long term to try to keep the cup/competitive window open, or to hold onto them as UFA's until the trade deadline and start a rebuild going into one of the strongest drafts.

We now are stuck going down the cup/competitive window and if our best players can't find their game or play to at least what's expected of them with their contracts we are in for a LONG 7-8 years of classic flames mediocrity, regardless of what we do with our front office or bench management.

Yeah, I don't think anyone should be pointing their finger at Sutter and saying this is all on him. He's one of the key pieces, but this failure is on the management/coaches/players.

The idea that we are now stuck going down the cup/competitive window shouldn't have any basis in reality though. Lindholm, Tanev, Hanifin, Backlund, Toffoli, and Zadorov all have contracts that expire in 2024 - so the fact that we have Huberdeau, Weegar, and Kadri on contract shouldn't dictate anything.

This team has the opportunity to rebuild right in front of them with a good number of high value assets that can be moved. Whether they make the smart decision to do that or the dumb decision to not is yet to be seen...but I'll hold onto hope that they commit to a rebuild this summer, until they don't.

[TheIronMaiden]

At this point the ax is falling on Sutter because what else can they change?

Hope players bounce back and Pelletier and Cornonato can become difference makers?

[Toonage]

Man, how awkward would it be for Tre if he flies out to pick up Coronato, who politely says no thanks.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

At this point the ax is falling on Sutter because what else can they change?

Hope players bounce back and Pelletier and Cornonato can become difference makers?

Probably for a team save percentage higher than the current .886?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Now we’re questioning Huberdeau’s character? Nary a peep about the character of the stars that bailed or forced their way out, no we’re going to question the character of the guy who came in and said he would be here for 8 years sight unseen. The French Canadian who willingly signed up to be in Alberta for 8 years and deal with this fanbase, that’s the guy whose character we’re going to question. Top tier stuff.

Just quoting this so that people can read it again

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Man, how awkward would it be for Tre if he flies out to pick up Coronato, who politely says no thanks.

If they’re willing to burn a year of his ELC? No way he says no thanks to that. That is absolutely massive for him.

But… that should be a bit of a sobering reality for Flames fans. The team has to burn years off ELC- in my mind a requirement to be successful in the salary cap era, to get college Americans to sign here? Brutal.

Stop drafting US born players and specifically college players. There are significant strategic issues with it. Get into scouting western Canada and Canadians / Swedes / Finns generally.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

At this point the ax is falling on Sutter because what else can they change?

Hope players bounce back and Pelletier and Cornonato can become difference makers?

Lindholm and Hanifin have incentive to be better

Not sure about rest of the team

Toffoli is as good as he can be. Markstrom is 35 and close to be toasted.
Huberdeau should be better but showing no sign of it. Kadri is 32, it’s only going downhill for him

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Now we’re questioning Huberdeau’s character? Nary a peep about the character of the stars that bailed or forced their way out, no we’re going to question the character of the guy who came in and said he would be here for 8 years sight unseen. The French Canadian who willingly signed up to be in Alberta for 8 years and deal with this fanbase, that’s the guy whose character we’re going to question. Top tier stuff.

For years this organization has underachieved. They were missing the playoffs every second season almost. Alternating between good season and bad season. Two new players come into the fold. One that's been one of the top scoring players in the league for the past 5 years and the other also coming off a career season that just won a Stanley Cup. These players aren't chumps as they both came to Calgary highly regarded. If it was just one of those players you could chalk it up to maybe a malcontent but the fact that both have not been happy with the way things are going tells me that maybe there's actually something wrong with this team and players from an outside perspective can see that better than the ones that got comfortable in mediocrity over the years.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Good post. The context of the situation that Treliving faced is also paramount to the discussion.

Gaudreau- not signed long-term, pays lip service to the 11th hour, leaves the Flames without assets salvaged and is their best player leaving in free agency.

Treliving makes a great trade to land a prized 115 point player, and wasn't going to make that same mistake again. Yet, in doing so, he made an even bigger mistake.

What's worse, a) signing an 8 year deal where the guy is overpaid by 100% or b) letting a high profile UFA walk.

I think in the age of the salary cap, a) is worse and a bigger mistake than b), because with b), you can actually make moves as a GM and your hands aren't tied which leads me to my next point:

Part of the issue at hand is Calgary as a market. Looking back at last year's trade deadline, theoretically the Flames should have looked to trade Gaudreau. Recoup some assets. Understand if he will sign with you or not in January, not in July. Give him a legitimate deadline, to understand what moves you can make to maximize value. I even said so at the time and got lambasted on this site. The alternative was said player getting us to round 2, but that's it. Good franchises maximize asset value over the long-term regardless of current position because that's how you become a Tampa, Boston, leveraging assets and being unafraid to make difficult decisions in tough scenarios. Gaudreau should have been traded- absolutely after the season ended; even for a late pick to somebody to sign before FA. Would the fans and Calgary have let that happen? Absolutely not.

Hindsight 20-20, but a hard lesson for Treliving there was he needed to become a lot more business minded, and make decisions in the best interest of the franchise, not the players. You're right that an earlier deadline should've been established so if a contract renewal wasn't done by then, then you maximize the asset so you don't come out empty handed. Even if the Flames were looking to be in a good spot for a playoff run, you want to be great for several years in a row. Not just one.

So it's good that he got Huby and locked down term right away. But that was a huge risk with an unknown commodity fitting in this system. So far it has gone as bad as it could. Which repeats other big UFA signings he's done in the past.

Flames really need to build and retain their core players internally.