Sutter is the problem

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Dude, if Huberdeau played as much as Tkachuk did last season (17:54 mins), then he'd likely have 48 points based on points per second played. Slightly more minutes isn't going to make much difference.

You seem to think a player's output is 100% within their own control. And I agree Huberdeau had been hugely disappointing, but it's not 100% on him.

Kadri and Huberdeau do not compliment eachother at all. Completely different styles of play. But Sutter has tied them together at the hip and won't break them up.

Sutter seems very willing to use 1 or 2 games to write-off things he doesn't want to do (i.e play Phillips), but when it's his idea he sure is comfortable with 50 games of forcing the players to figure it out.

Lucic isn't an everyday NHL player, but Sutter is using him in that role, at absolute key times.

Why does performance dictate ice time for Huberdeau and not Lucic? That's the problem, and it sure plays into the bias many people believe Sutter has, which is "big =good".

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Ferarri

I don't understand the point that you're trying to make. Yes, Tkachuk is averaging over 20 minutes a game, so are you saying if Huberdeau hit those same numbers here in Calgary that he would be an 87 point player as opposed to a 45 point player?

You ever hear about how players playing more build momentum as they get each shift and build off that? Kind of hard to do that in a system that just rolls 4 lines, doesn't match lines, and wants to play a safe game.

WE should trade for Mackinnon so Sutter can beat into him how to play 4 line hockey and 15 minutes a game.

[sss1]

Originally Posted by Philly06Cup

In soccer, most players play two whole 45 minute halves. In the NBA, there is load management, but superstars normally play 30-40 minutes. I see no reason why superstar NHL players, including forwards, shouldn't be playing ~30 minutes a night. They give you the best win%. Play them as much as they can handle. Fitness and conditioning has evolved immensely. Seems like a relic of the oldey-times to keep players capped at ~20minutes.

This is comparison is way off base. Soccer players are able to conserve their energy on the pitch because they aren't running back and forth touching the ball for 90 minutes. That's not how the game is played. More to that, if there are players that do a whole lot of running and get gassed, they get subbed off.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

You ever hear about how players playing more build momentum as they get each shift and build off that? Kind of hard to do that in a system that just rolls 4 lines, doesn't match lines, and wants to play a safe game.

WE should trade for Mackinnon so Sutter can beat into him how to play 4 line hockey and 15 minutes a game.

Kopitar went from 52 points Sutter's last year to 92 the following year.Dustin Brown went from 36 to 61.

I think Sutter can be very effective with the right players. After last year I thought he was able to adjust to get the most out of the players he has on his roster.

Watching him fumble this year, I just don't understand what he is trying to accomplish.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by Philly06Cup

In soccer, most players play two whole 45 minute halves. In the NBA, there is load management, but superstars normally play 30-40 minutes. I see no reason why superstar NHL players, including forwards, shouldn't be playing ~30 minutes a night. They give you the best win%. Play them as much as they can handle. Fitness and conditioning has evolved immensely. Seems like a relic of the oldey-times to keep players capped at ~20minutes.

Tell us you've never played hockey without telling us you've never played hockey.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

You ever hear about how players playing more build momentum as they get each shift and build off that? Kind of hard to do that in a system that just rolls 4 lines, doesn't match lines, and wants to play a safe game.

WE should trade for Mackinnon so Sutter can beat into him how to play 4 line hockey and 15 minutes a game.

This is my point on touches. Creative players need lots of opportunities because 90% of their plays don’t result in goals. Tkachuk makes a ton of passes that don’t go anywhere.

Huberdeau needs more touches and a better fit on his line. I think even Backlund is a better fit than Kadri. Which is strange because Huberdeau did fine with Bennett and Kadri players a lot like Bennett did when he was here (dunno if he changed in Fla).

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Why isn't Maurice giving Tkachuk 17 minutes a game? Thats what he played here in Calgary.

By the same token why is Johnny getting more ice in Columbus? He should have it reduced to match what he did here.

Its like some coaches realize to get the most out of your star players they need to be in the feel of the game and touching the puck more, but nahh Sutter knows best roll the lines.

No, I’m trying to make an honest comparison with the same coach while you’re trying to compare across different teams, rosters, conference, coaches and etc. The best comparison would be to compare Huberdeau last season to either Tkachuk or Gaudreau of last season, it makes the most sense.

But maybe you just want to make comparisons that only help your narrative, so in which case, do whatever you want to do because I’ll probably be putting you on my ignore list soon. It’s obvious we’re not going to see eye to eye ever so I’d rather save hours of my day than constantly rehashing the same topics with you over and over and over.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

Kopitar went from 52 points Sutter's last year to 92 the following year.Dustin Brown went from 36 to 61.

Kopitar had 3 seasons of 70+ points under Sutter, which is in the higher end of his career norms and 3 of his most productive seasons. After his 92 point season, he followed that up with a 60 point season, less than what he achieved most years under Sutter.

[Ferarri]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

You ever hear about how players playing more build momentum as they get each shift and build off that? Kind of hard to do that in a system that just rolls 4 lines, doesn't match lines, and wants to play a safe game.

WE should trade for Mackinnon so Sutter can beat into him how to play 4 line hockey and 15 minutes a game.

Momentum works both ways. When you are provided with opportunities and go out there and have zero or even a negative impact then it also has a downward effect on the rest of the team.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

You seem to think a player's output is 100% within their own control. And I agree Huberdeau had been hugely disappointing, but it's not 100% on him.

Kadri and Huberdeau do not compliment eachother at all. Completely different styles of play. But Sutter has tied them together at the hip and won't break them up.

Sutter seems very willing to use 1 or 2 games to write-off things he doesn't want to do (i.e play Phillips), but when it's his idea he sure is comfortable with 50 games of forcing the players to figure it out.

Lucic isn't an everyday NHL player, but Sutter is using him in that role, at absolute key times.

Why does performance dictate ice time for Huberdeau and not Lucic? That's the problem, and it sure plays into the bias many people believe Sutter has, which is "big =good".

No, I don’t think it’s all on one guy, like I said earlier, I think Kadri’s game has dropped off a ton from earlier in the season and that has had a negative impact on his linemates. But it goes the other way too right? Sometimes the others aren’t too good either which hurts Kadri, so it’s symbiotic.

For Huberdeau though, i’ve said it a lot that I don’t think it’s his linemates that’s been the source of his frustrations. This is a guy who had a career year with Sam Bennett and Anthony Duclair, yet he can’t figure it out with anybody here? Are our players that much worse than Duclair or Bennett? Unlikely, it’s something else.

When it comes Lucic, man I don’t know. It’s a pretty tiring conversation and honestly, a lot of fanbases complain about it. I’ve seen this same conversation had around the NHL. Typically, fans don’t want to see their 4th lines get minutes especially if you can play the top 6 more, but every coach in the NHL uses them and they’re usually in the range of 10 minutes give or take which is about where Lucic is. He did play with Huberdeau and Kadri for a month which probably inflated his minutes as well, but Im not gonna bother doing the math.

There’s not much more I can say or want to say, I get the hate, but it’s not the biggest reason why the team is sitting where they are, not even close.

[ForeverFlameFan]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1636120085533462528

Thoughts?

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Ferarri

Momentum works both ways. When you are provided with opportunities and go out there and have zero or even a negative impact then it also has a downward effect on the rest of the team.

That’s true, not to mention if bad performing lines are getting more minutes in a specific game, that takes away minutes from a better performing line.

My theory as to why Huberdeau’s average ice time is down is because his line has had a lot of mediocre games this season and they end up sitting in the 14-15 range. If his line has less mediocre games, then his average ice time would rise.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Thoughts?

We've misjudged Sutter that is a fine tank job.

[Southside403]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

No, I don’t think it’s all on one guy, like I said earlier, I think Kadri’s game has dropped off a ton from earlier in the season and that has had a negative impact on his linemates. But it goes the other way too right? Sometimes the others aren’t too good either which hurts Kadri, so it’s symbiotic.

For Huberdeau though, i’ve said it a lot that I don’t think it’s his linemates that’s been the source of his frustrations. This is a guy who had a career year with Sam Bennett and Anthony Duclair, yet he can’t figure it out with anybody here? Are our players that much worse than Duclair or Bennett? Unlikely, it’s something else.

When it comes Lucic, man I don’t know. It’s a pretty tiring conversation and honestly, a lot of fanbases complain about it. I’ve seen this same conversation had around the NHL. Typically, fans don’t want to see their 4th lines get minutes especially if you can play the top 6 more, but every coach in the NHL uses them and they’re usually in the range of 10 minutes give or take which is about where Lucic is. He did play with Huberdeau and Kadri for a month which probably inflated his minutes as well, but Im not gonna bother doing the math.

There’s not much more I can say or want to say, I get the hate, but it’s not the biggest reason why the team is sitting where they are, not even close.

Great post got admire flames fan base they want results and are frustrated 30 year drought

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

https://twitter.com/user/status/1636120085533462528

Thoughts?

NSFW!

That % is not simply the flames performance.
Pelletier is not a goalie.

Every sports reporter now thinks their job is another twitter follower, no matter how stupid the take. (Though to be fair, maybe it is)

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

NSFW!

That % is not simply the flames performance.
Pelletier is not a goalie.

Every sports reporter now thinks their job is another twitter follower, no matter how stupid the take. (Though to be fair, maybe it is)

I agree. It was just something that a friend of mine posted to me, and I felt like you can't pinpoint one incident for the whole downfall of this season.

[CalgaryFan1988]

So, the Pelletier comment turned Vegas' season around? Interesting.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

No, I don’t think it’s all on one guy, like I said earlier, I think Kadri’s game has dropped off a ton from earlier in the season and that has had a negative impact on his linemates. But it goes the other way too right? Sometimes the others aren’t too good either which hurts Kadri, so it’s symbiotic.

For Huberdeau though, i’ve said it a lot that I don’t think it’s his linemates that’s been the source of his frustrations. This is a guy who had a career year with Sam Bennett and Anthony Duclair, yet he can’t figure it out with anybody here? Are our players that much worse than Duclair or Bennett? Unlikely, it’s something else.

When it comes Lucic, man I don’t know. It’s a pretty tiring conversation and honestly, a lot of fanbases complain about it. I’ve seen this same conversation had around the NHL. Typically, fans don’t want to see their 4th lines get minutes especially if you can play the top 6 more, but every coach in the NHL uses them and they’re usually in the range of 10 minutes give or take which is about where Lucic is. He did play with Huberdeau and Kadri for a month which probably inflated his minutes as well, but Im not gonna bother doing the math.

There’s not much more I can say or want to say, I get the hate, but it’s not the biggest reason why the team is sitting where they are, not even close.

What do you mean he can't figure it out with anyone here? Sutter absolutley refuses to separate Kadri and Huberdeau. I'd say if you don't mesh with your centre you are going to have a hard time of it. Then add that he is trying very few line combos with Kadri, with one of the largest sample sizes being Milan Lucic.

I have a hard time believing you would look at Sutter's line deployment and think he has tried even a little to get Huberdeau going with different linemates.

And the issue isn't just overplaying the 4th line, it's that Lucic shouldn't be playing. So Sutter plays his way over the hill favourite player, and plays him too much. That's 100% a legit complaint. Does Toronto force Wayne Simmonds into the lineup? Same thing.

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

You ever hear about how players playing more build momentum as they get each shift and build off that? Kind of hard to do that in a system that just rolls 4 lines, doesn't match lines, and wants to play a safe game.

WE should trade for Mackinnon so Sutter can beat into him how to play 4 line hockey and 15 minutes a game.

Really working in Florida too. Maurice is an awesome coach in your eyes because Tkachuk is getting 21 minutes a night? Yet they are right with us points wise.

[musth]

I'm aware huby is not making 10.5 this year, but...

Imagine playing arguably your most skilled player in an offensive stifling system

Imagine playing arguably your most skilled player with a guy like Lucic, a guy who by most accounts, could have hung them up two years ago and almost certainly should have this year

Imagine keeping a key cog in last year's top line and high performing center away from your skilled high priced signing for most of the year

Imagine playing your most skilled player barely more game minutes than your aforementioned gronk, and others like him from the 4th line and in fact, cutting those minutes that your skilled player was used to previously

Imagine welcoming your teams most expensive signing, and upon the start of his new season, stifle his excitement and goodwill by making stupid comments in the press about him, and then later, a fellow quebecan

Imagine not basing your teams #1 PP through this man's unique passing ability and skillset, choosing rather to employ an outside perimeter, slow, low percentage shot system

Imagine tying arguably your most skilled player with slow, incompatible linemates, and in the case of Kadri, a guy who shows no ability to use other teammates, and the combination thereof obvious to anyone who has watched the team through the first 60 games that they are like chalk and cheese

Imagine this player (or these players) seeing 4 lines rolled no matter what, see barely any in game adjustments, particularly in the last half of third periods and OT, see goalies played when it's obvious they're not mentally in it, play guys when they don't deserve to play and refrain from playing players when they do deserve to play, giving some players much much longer rope and others much much less, for no obvious reason other than age or possibly 'experience' and finally rewarding players who make obvious, game costing mistakes with PP or ot time, and benching or sending to minors players who make minor mistakes or don't 'give enough' in practice or god forbid, be under 6'2"

Imagine instead of giving your individual players or your team every opportunity to succeed, or even learn, you choose to run things like your setting players and the team to fail, largely due to your own stubbornness or hubris.


Imagine indeed