Sutter is the problem

[chedder]

Just because Sutter says we don't have talent doesn't mean we don't have talent.

[All In Good Time]

Originally Posted by chedder

Just because Sutter says we don't have talent doesn't mean we don't have talent.

Sure
Then
All the more reason to play a style that wins cups
If our goaltending had been better this year, this discussion would not be happening

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Well actually, Sutter’s been bemoaning about the lack of game breakers on this team which is true. In all these one goal games, someone needs to step up and make a play and it hasn’t happened all season long. So it’s a pretty fair statement especially since he’s asking for someone, not just one specific player.

Secondly, with less than one month to go on the season, the Lucic-Kadri-Huberdeau line is still easily the most productive line that Huberdeau has played on, 3 x more productive than 10-28-73 and double the beloved Pelletier-Huberdeau combo. This is just a statistical fact I’m stating at this point, Lucic has basically been Huberdeau’s most productive linemate this season, so the complaints about this can stop.

Thirdly, I’m only using Kaprizov as a comparison to style/system. Not all players suffer statistically because they’re forced to play in a stifling defense first system. Kaprizov would probably be just fine under Sutter.

As for the Lindholm thing, as already pointed out above, was not a good combo. They scored 4 goals in the roughly 12-13 games they played together, 4! He’s played with just about everyone on the team this season and that pair has been just about the worst producing combo when they’re together. Toffoli and Lindholm are way better off away from him, their styles just do not mix.

You know why Toffoli and Lindholm lead the team in scoring this season? There’s an actual reason, not just some basic because “that’s the type of player he is” or he’s an “easy guy to put in your line up.” It’s because he and Lindholm have bought into Darryl’s strategy of checking for your chances. Actually, this isn’t even a Darryl thing, every coach the Flames have had since Gulutzan have talking about this.

Regardless, if you watch Toffoli and Lindholm, they’re constantly buzzing around the ozone creating their chances off their ability to check. Even with Gaudreau and Tkachuk, everyone just remembers the fancy goals they scored. But if you watched those guys closely, they played dump and chase all the time, but they were just so good at getting in quickly on the forecheck and winning puck battles, winning 50/50s that they made it look seamless.

That’s what ultimately made that line really successful, even if Gaudreau couldn’t out right win puck battles by himself, he used his elite acceleration to quickly close gaps and delay so his linemates could jump in and out number the opposition down low. Even with the spamming of point shots, it’s the dmen that are asked to shoot, not the forwards, so they directed lots of pucks to the net. But that’s the point of checking, the ones that do it well in Darryl’s system have success.

So, the idea that they just ignored Sutter’s system is absurd. They would’ve been benched, but instead, they got lots of minutes because they were successful playing his system. Sure, their ability to create on the rush was a component that lead to them scoring 100+ points and 40 goals each, but make no mistake, their ability to check in all 3 zones made them deadly both offensively and defensively. If Huberdeau wants to ever have playoff success, then he’s going to have to learn how to play this way because there’s no time and space in the playoffs. So until he figures these different components out, then I don’t think he’s going to be a factor under Darryl or in the playoffs.

How come the greatest checkers of all time sucked it up in the playoffs or is it just Huberdeau that needs to learn to play in the playoffs?

Tkachuk and Gaudreau have been flakes in the playoffs.

They didn't check like you never seen checking before as love to say. Tkachuk stood at the defensive blueline and threw blind cross ice passes all the time.

They had career years playing for new contracts after they sewered their values the last 2.5 years and playoffs.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I just don’t see “lazy skilled player” when I watch Huberdeau. There’s nothing lazy about his game, especially when compared to Gaudreau or Tkachuk. Or some present Flames.

People are acting like last season was the only one to look at for the top line guys. Players have years where it doesn’t go well. Huberdeau has had that kind of a season. But also his deployment and minutes as well as how the power play is set up haven’t helped.

Not calling him a lazy skilled player. But I am asking, what does he have to do to play like he did against the Rangers on a regular basis? He was the best skater on the ice that night and it's because he put on the work boots and won himself a lot of puck battles and races for loose pucks.

Huberdeau's not the type of player who can out right win puck battles using his sheer size, strength or speed. He's the not that type of player, but we saw in that game, what he can do when he steps up and puts in the work.

He's also not the type of player who's going to steal pucks and go end to end and deke through bodies. What he does have is the uncanny ability and vision to quickly find trailers and find guys streaking towards the net, but can he put himself in a position to get more opportunities in the first place?

That's the question I have for him because I see a big difference when he's on his game and working hard (vs NYR) vs when he's not and those are usually the games when he looks "invisible."

[GioforPM]

Actually, he is the kind of player who wins puck battles because of size and strength and he does it pretty regularly.

I think the reason he hasn’t found all the assists is that he simply doesn’t get the same number of touches to do so. His linemates haven’t looked to him enough and when they finally do he’s in a covered position.

[just_tim]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Sutter knows this. It doesn't matter how good a player is, come playoffs players need to adjust. If your star players are playing a soft, lazy, perimeter. East/West style of game they will not succeed.

In the playoffs, cross ice passes almost always get picked off, everyone becomes a shot blocker and even your star players will need to get to the net, deflect pucks, pick up rebounds and play a high-speed North/South game.

Sure, we could fire Sutter and get a coach that lets Huberdeau play his game and he gets his 100 points, and we make the playoffs. But we probably lose in the first round like we did when we had Johnny most years.

Johnny's best playoffs and season was under Sutter. Huberdeau needs to adjust more than anyone right now.

Sutter line combos could get him fired though.

Your argument might hold weight if the Flames were going to make the playoffs, then possibility of which dims daily. I could go into all the arguments stated by many posters here, but realistically, Sutter has in no way elevated anyone’s game, which may be an acceptable outcome if the team is getting positive results, but this year’s team is not. A good coach gets the best results, team and players, from the players he has at his disposal. That’s simply not the case for anyone on this year’s team.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

How come the greatest checkers of all time sucked it up in the playoffs or is it just Huberdeau that needs to learn to play in the playoffs?

Tkachuk and Gaudreau have been flakes in the playoffs.

They didn't check like you never seen checking before as love to say. Tkachuk stood at the defensive blueline and threw blind cross ice passes all the time.

They had career years playing for new contracts after they sewered their values the last 2.5 years and playoffs.

It's not just Huberdeau, a lot of stars have this problem. It's a question that's been around since forever, look at Steve Yzerman transforming his game as a prime example.

Huberdeau doesn't have the overpowering physical attributes that gives him an edge over other stars like MacKinnon and McDavid who have that blinding speed where they can easily get around guys. He doesn't have that power forward like size or strength like Draisaitl or Malkin who can protect pucks and be tough to take the puck from. He also doesn't have that natural competitiveness like Crosby or Toews. These individual god given traits give these stars an edge in a lot of one on one situations.

Huberdeau's elite skillset has everything to do with his vision. Nobody else on this team has the same ability to find the trailer like he does or feathering it to a guy streaking towards the net or on a breakaway. But these aren't pure one on one situations, mono e mono scenarios, they're more situations that have to present themselves.

But these situations aren't going to present themselves as often if you're constantly turning pucks over or rushing passes to avoid contact. Conversely, when he's winning more puck and 50/50s though, then he creates more opportunities to find his teammates open more.

That's why it's important for him to do this on a regular basis because as nice as it is to be able to do this in the regular season when the game is more apt to wide open play, you don't get this kind of time and space in the playoffs when every play is being contested or the neutral zone is completely clogged up or backcheckers are coming at you furiously.

...and yes, I do agree with you to an extent that Gaudreau and Tkachuk have struggled in the playoffs. But they're also flawed, they're not 1st overall picks like McDavid or Mackinnon. They couldn't carry their own line by themselves, but when they finally did just the one time, they were easily at their most productive of their careers. I thought Gaudreau dominated in the Stars and beginning of the Oilers series which is something I had never seen from him before throughout his entire career.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

And where does the organization go from here? Geoff Ward, Bill Peters, Gulutzan were all colossal failures, and it is likely the next coach is just as bad with the track record of coaches this Franchise pursues.

If things were so toxic that the coach is simply outdated and despised as you suggest, the team wouldn't be playing the system to a T and showing up to play every night, they would be mailing in games left, right and center.

This is a team that can't score and couldn't get a save all year (until recently). Call it what it is. That's on everyone from the GM and Coach to the players themselves who are all paid handsomely to produce. Let's not pretend that the same staff that produced the year it did last year is somehow completely inept. Quite honestly, this team should be a whole lot worse in many ways than it is given the goaltending and PP this year, so much of even being afloat is due to the staff not letting this group quit.

But assuming that the Flames miss the playoffs this year they made the playoffs more often on a percentage basis under Ward, Peters and Gulutzan that they will have under Sutter. Not sure what that makes the current regime if those guys were colossal failures.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Actually, he is the kind of player who wins puck battles because of size and strength and he does it pretty regularly.

I think the reason he hasn’t found all the assists is that he simply doesn’t get the same number of touches to do so. His linemates haven’t looked to him enough and when they finally do he’s in a covered position.

Yeah I disagree completely. He's not particularly big or heavy, pretty much average, so I don't know why his size or strength would be the primary reason for his success. I think it's more so his will that wins him puck battles and I personally do not think he wins enough of em.

As for him being covered, it's kind of the situation that his whole line has run into all season long. Everyone is constantly covered because they don't put enough pressure to break down the opposition's structure, so the chances they create end up being pretty tepid at best. They also don't check enough for their chances either when it's easier to find open teammates due to the chaos that ensues.

I mean, to beat an already dead horse even more, just look at what the top line did last season. How often did Gaudreau or Tkachuk find Lindholm open in the slot for his patented one timer. But there has to be some chaos in the offensive zone for the opposition to vacate the slot in order for that to happen and the current Flames roster doesn't have the type of gamebreakers who can create and convert on this kind of stuff on a regular basis.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

But assuming that the Flames miss the playoffs this year they made the playoffs more often on a percentage basis under Ward, Peters and Gulutzan that they will have under Sutter. Not sure what that makes the current regime if those guys were colossal failures.

Using percentage when the other guys coaches two seasons or less a piece is, to put it mildly, pretty stupid, and I assume you know you’re being stupid by using it.

Should tell you something that Sutter won more playoff games behind the bench last year than all of those guys combined.

Not even just as coaches of the Flames. In their careers… combined.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

It's not just Huberdeau, a lot of stars have this problem. It's a question that's been around since forever, look at Steve Yzerman transforming his game as a prime example.

Huberdeau doesn't have the overpowering physical attributes that gives him an edge over other stars like MacKinnon and McDavid who have that blinding speed where they can easily get around guys. He doesn't have that power forward like size or strength like Draisaitl or Malkin who can protect pucks and be tough to take the puck from. He also doesn't have that natural competitiveness like Crosby or Toews. These individual god given traits give these stars an edge in a lot of one on one situations.

Huberdeau's elite skillset has everything to do with his vision. Nobody else on this team has the same ability to find the trailer like he does or feathering it to a guy streaking towards the net or on a breakaway. But these aren't pure one on one situations, mono e mono scenarios, they're more situations that have to present themselves.

But these situations aren't going to present themselves as often if you're constantly turning pucks over or rushing passes to avoid contact. Conversely, when he's winning more puck and 50/50s though, then he creates more opportunities to find his teammates open more.

That's why it's important for him to do this on a regular basis because as nice as it is to be able to do this in the regular season when the game is more apt to wide open play, you don't get this kind of time and space in the playoffs when every play is being contested or the neutral zone is completely clogged up or backcheckers are coming at you furiously.

...and yes, I do agree with you to an extent that Gaudreau and Tkachuk have struggled in the playoffs. But they're also flawed, they're not 1st overall picks like McDavid or Mackinnon. They couldn't carry their own line by themselves, but when they finally did just the one time, they were easily at their most productive of their careers. I thought Gaudreau dominated in the Stars and beginning of the Oilers series which is something I had never seen from him before throughout his entire career.

I think he has the size and ability to hold and protect pucks I think that's why he wanted to be on the left.

He's not going to over power anyone and he was never a power forward but he wins lot of boards battles and plays strong along the walls. I think that is the issue is playing to close to the walls. He needs to play more free and back to his spots and yes turnovers will happens but I think 115 points makes up for those mistakes.

He also gets open but he isn't getting the puck.

His ice time has been chopped.

You used Kaprizov as an example and ignored what me and a few other posters pointed out. He is given more rope to play his game because he is counted on to produce and he also given the ice time to do it he's not some robot hoping over playing a 4 line rotation with 14 minutes a game.

Like I said he isn't getting the respect he deserves for his accomplishments. He wasn't getting ice time to start the season and he isn't now.

We got a star player excited to make an impact and it feels like as soon as the coach got him he started to break him down and to get in line.

This also goes back to last year when we apparently had no stars according to star but hey gave those players more rope.

[GioforPM]

Huberdeau is listed at 6’0” and 200 lbs but he looks bigger to me, and he sure manhandles players when he wants to (see last game).

But when you look at high scoring players, they have the puck a lot. Because of lots of ice time plus their linemates look to get them the puck. This hasn;t happened much this year. He gets an equal amount of ice time because Sutter really evens out time plus Kadri in particular doesn’t feed him much. The guy needs multiple touches per shift and he often gets just one.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Using percentage when the other guys coaches two seasons or less a piece is, to put it mildly, pretty stupid, and I assume you know you’re being stupid by using it.

Should tell you something that Sutter won more playoff games behind the bench last year than all of those guys combined.

Not even just as coaches of the Flames. In their careers… combined.

I think we are all thankful that Darryl had one good year out of the three and we got to experience 5 playoff victories, everyone is thankful for that. The other two mediocre years so far were (and currently are) tough, but last years 5 playoff wins will be something we will have memories of.

The Oilers have their memories of Woodcroft and whoever else is on their coaching staff of their 8 playoff wins as well. Although I was pissed when Woodcroft took the shot at the Flames pumping up their shot totals by taking shots from the red line, uncalled for to call out an opponents strategy that way.

[chedder]

If Sutter is coaching this way to spite, most likely, Treliving, this team is so doomed.

Treliving likely isn't coming back so Sutter will get an enabling GM in place and we'll see how this team does next year.

Me thinks there are going to be a lot of season tickets relinquished.

[Yikes]

Originally Posted by chedder

If Sutter is coaching this way to spite, most likely, Treliving, this team is so doomed.

Treliving likely isn't coming back so Sutter will get an enabling GM in place and we'll see how this team does next year.

Me thinks there are going to be a lot of season tickets relinquished.

My cousin and I have been season ticket holders since 08 and we are out, this is our last season.

[Infinit47]

I thought Huberdeau had a really good game, and Sutter have him 14:04 in regulation.

Good players will make mistakes trying to do crazy things. Sutter won't accept that, and so we see what long term Sutter hockey looks like. Spending the game trying not to make mistakes.

[SuperMatt18]

Yeah Sutter has coached all the fun and will out of this team.

The focus has been on Huberdeau but IMO Kadri looks even more miserable to be here playing for Sutter.

His system isn't the issue IMO but his bench management, his attitude, and his overall stubborness have really been issues this year.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

I thought Huberdeau had a really good game, and Sutter have him 14:04 in regulation.

Good players will make mistakes trying to do crazy things. Sutter won't accept that, and so we see what long term Sutter hockey looks like. Spending the game trying not to make mistakes.

That's why the short term buy in works especially with a goalie playing all world.

The King's are a perfect storm had him half a season and steam rolled the playoffs.

Lockout season

First full season and grinded 26 games including 3 consecutive game 7 wins and a 0-3 come back to win.

The King's looked like crap after and it's because it's just not sustainable for a long period of time. The mind games and physical and mental grind to win 2-1 every game is hard to keep up.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

If markstrom doesn't come down with baby anxiety maybe they go on a kings run last spring

That was their "Sutter shot" and they shot it

Now we're in the hangover phase

You don't go and extend that for 2 years

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

I thought Huberdeau had a really good game, and Sutter have him 14:04 in regulation.

Good players will make mistakes trying to do crazy things. Sutter won't accept that, and so we see what long term Sutter hockey looks like. Spending the game trying not to make mistakes.

He will live and die by Lucic mistakes instead. Low/no event hockey is like morphine to him

Give me 17 minutes of Huby with the right linemates every say of the week. That's the recipe to get your top six going

Play it too safe, you just end up with a neutered team like this