Sutter is the problem

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Sutter is stubborn. It's both what I like, and don't like about him. He doesn't throw his lines in a blender, he doesn't jump from one approachthing
He believes he knows what is needed to win and he sticks with it. Period. If it's a war of wills, he is going to win.

It's just tough as a fan to have faith that it will work out when the results aren't there. An entire season down the drain with such a veteran group is just a big downer. And we don't live in a keep the faith kind of world. Fans are going to complain about any coach as soon as the results aren't what we want and every coach eventually gets run out of town. Even Badger Bob who everyone remembers fondly and left on his own. No one was too happy with him after his last season before leaving.

I think he needs an elite player, or 2 for his system to work. He had that last season. My worry is we bring in another coach and end up with a bunch of players dictating play, like we had before Sutter. I am sure he is frustrated too because the guys he counts on don't seem to show up. Johnny G would put the whole team on his back and make a pass or shot for a goal. Where is that now? Brad should have signed Johnny G sooner and gave him what he wanted. Instead we are stuck with a couple guys getting paid but don't drive the play or show up. These were not the players Sutter was given when he chose to coach the Flames. This might partly explain his unusual stubborn approach this season.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

I think he needs an elite player, or 2 for his system to work. He had that last season. My worry is we bring in another coach and end up with a bunch of players dictating play, like we had before Sutter. I am sure he is frustrated too because the guys he counts on don't seem to show up. Johnny G would put the whole team on his back and make a pass or shot for a goal. Where is that now? Brad should have signed Johnny G sooner and gave him what he wanted. Instead we are stuck with a couple guys getting paid but don't drive the play or show up. These were not the players Sutter was given when he chose to coach the Flames, this might explain his unusual stubborn approach this season.

I don’t think Brad owns a house in the eastern side of the US.

Honestly, Gaudreau had a phenomenal year last year. What about the previous 2? This year he’s pretty pedestrian as well. And as for putting the team on his back, prior to last year the whole Gaudreau complaint was that he was a fine complementary player but not a guy to take the team on his back. Short memories I guess.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don’t think Brad owns a house in the eastern side of the US.

Honestly, Gaudreau had a phenomenal year last year. What about the previous 2? This year he’s pretty pedestrian as well. And as for putting the team on his back, prior to last year the whole Gaudreau complaint was that he was a fine complementary player but not a guy to take the team on his back. Short memories I guess.

55 points and -25 this season

This season is almost a mirror image of the Canadian div...people act like the team never struggled with Tkachuk/Gaudreau

[Strange Brew]

The whole argument was whether you could win a Cup if Gaudreau is your best player. IMO you can't, and I think we saw evidence of that.

Ask the same question this year of the Flames and insert whichever player you want.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don’t think Brad owns a house in the eastern side of the US.

Honestly, Gaudreau had a phenomenal year last year. What about the previous 2? This year he’s pretty pedestrian as well. And as for putting the team on his back, prior to last year the whole Gaudreau complaint was that he was a fine complementary player but not a guy to take the team on his back. Short memories I guess.

Pedestrian, wasn't Monahan injured and didn't they just put that top line together last season? Sutter was doing something right, let's not give the guys coming in a free pass.

[Flames_Gimp]

it's the lack of skill, and for some reason the gm and Sutter both think the team is good enough not to upgrade at the trade deadline.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by dino7c

55 points and -25 this season

This season is almost a mirror image of the Canadian div...people act like the team never struggled with Tkachuk/Gaudreau

Canadian division was Sutter’s worst year of coaching with the team. Even worse than this year.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Let’s just cut to the chase here because this merry go round is getting tiresome and there’s so many better things in life to do than be on a message board all day arguing about the same things over and over and over.

The conversation really just boils down to whether or not Sutter’s stifling defensive system has inhibited Huberdeau’s ability to produce. The answer is probably a yes to a certain degree.

But then why is a guy like Tyler Toffoli, under the exact same conditions, coach, systems, situation, even less minutes, on pace to best his career high in goals and points? What’s he doing that Huberdeau isn’t doing?

How does a guy like Kirill Kaprizov score 39 goals (49g pace), 74 points (93p pace) on an even more defensively minded and stifling defensive system in Minnesota? How did Gaudreau and Tkachuk do what they did last season under Sutter?

When does the played who’s actually on the ice have to own up for his lack of production here? We’ve seen him play games where he's played well under the “system,” that NY Rangers game comes to mind. What did he do well in that game that gave him success? Is it that he’s just a lazy skilled player who needs his agent to light a fire under him every game?

Like, instead of the lame, generic, blame the coach blanket statements that’s so easy to throw out there, what would be your actual analysis of why Huberdeau has failed to produce this season while others have? I certainly have mine and would gladly offer it after I see your take.

Well first of all the disrespect Darryl has shown since Huberdeau has gotten here and how has been handled is top of mind. Even today heaping praise on Dube for being the ultimate team guy, and putting the blame on Huberdeau for not producing on Right Wing when asked. Publicly declaring we have no star players when Huberdeau out produced his stars that he chased away.

He also strapped Lucic on a line with him. When you want to compare Kaprizov to Huberdeau, at which point was he playing with Ryan Reaves this season? Thats the comparable you have with dumping Lucic on his line.

Kaprizov is also playing 21 minutes, if Huberdeau was getting that type of ice time and putting up these pedestrian numbers I would put a lot more blame on him. The fact is he is a star player who was told to get in line and play like Trevor Lewis and had his ice time reduced by almost 4 minutes a game.

His utilization has been poor from the get go, got a few games with Lindholm and that was it. Team was 5-2 and Sutter just screwed the season with his line juggling. Hes been strapped to Kadri who everyone can pinpoint is a terrible fit for Huberdeau and have developed zero chemistry but according to Darryl this is the pair he said so today so we gotta live with it.

The powerplay doesn't even run through Huberdeau.

He also has not given him the same rope he gave Tkachuk and Gaudreau if you think those two guys played Sutters way to a T you are kidding yourselves. They relied on Lindholm to do the heavy lifting and get the puck to them quickly as they bolted the defensive zone. Look at the metrics from last season Lindholm got a selke nomination and his defensive numbers came in worse but thats because he was the one doing a lot of the dirty work allowing those two freedom, and he benefited himself with a huge year.

I don't see the same rope give to Huberdeau, and I also see a guy trying too hard to do things the right way and his game has suffered. I do not see a lazy player like you said, the only thing lazy is the head coach who has so far done nothing to utilize the player properly.

Can Huberdeau take blame absolute he can be better, but the style Darryl wants it will not mesh with him. He needs to be given the same freedoms other players have received. I don't see Sutter blasting Kadri for being a puck hog, or his lazy backchecks.

This just isn't a Huberdeau thing as well. Like I have said many star players have had offensive numbers dip with Darryl as a coach.

Heck not even a star but he pretty much embarrassed Dustin Brown in LA and destroyed the guy and he hardly looked like a NHL player. Once Darryl was gone he suddenly looked better.

Why is Lindholms numbers half of what he was at last season? What about Mangiapane? Its not just Huberdeau this is a what you get with a Darryl Sutter coached team. I would argue last season was not Darryl Sutter hockey, this season is more a Darryl Sutter season. A team struggling to score trying to win every game 2-1.

Why is Toffoli producing? Because he has done it before that's the type of player he is and has always been a easy guy to put into your lineup and get production from.

[dammage79]

My brain checked out on the Huberdeau vs. Sutter debate yesterday. Not sure how I didn't notice Huberdeau playing RW most of the season but I didn't.

Just blows my mind Sutter thought to mess with a 115 point LW . There's not enough muttered curse words to cover my bewilderment.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by dammage79

My brain checked out on the Huberdeau vs. Sutter debate yesterday. Not sure how I didn't notice Huberdeau playing RW most of the season but I did.

Just blows my mind Sutter thought to mess with a 115 point LW . There's not enough muttered curse words to cover my bewilderment.

Its puzzling even more that there was zero communication with the player when the switch was made and yesterday when the switch was made again.

Its funny and sad at the same time that I posted an article with Doughty saying Sutter isn't approachable and you can't talk to him, and a few days later we find out he isn't talking to his players here.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The Flames are 8th for homeplate shots this season.

This isn't a perimeter issue.

See, to me that doesn't pass the smell test, the eye test, or the outcomes. At some point these counting stats have to align with actual results. This stat is questionable at best.

They're 18th in home plate danger though, so they're not getting the home plate shots with an event to get the goalie moving.

This even seems a little high. Do you have the corresponding stat for how many times the Flames hit the end boards from home plate?

That could be coaching, but the Flames were 11th in home plate danger last year, so it wasn't being coached out.

So I think it's partly a different team with less players that either can or are willing to take the puck into the danger areas and create chaos.

I think it has a lot more to do with scoring off the rush. The Flames were dangerous because they actually tried to score off the rush. It also doesn't help that the guy Sutter has fed prime time to fill the net crasher role can't take a pass or shoot to save his life. Better utilization of the players available would probably help here.

I think it's two things ...

1) a roster that doesn't have the one on one skills to create the high danger events

2) a coach that puts shot volume number one, perhaps eliminating the possibility for the high danger too often in exchange for a shot count

Definitely more of the latter than the former. Sutter's continual forcing of players into slots in the lineup is killing this team.

That and the randomness of hockey makes me think you could bring back the entire roster and Sutter next year and be 2nd in the division.

But Sutter's stubbornness has worn thin with me. I feel he's coaching to stick it to someone at all times ... the fans? the GM? the ownership?

Getting old.

It's possible, but unless the GM (whoever that will be) refuses to bring in veterans on their last legs that Sutter will play over guys with some upside (and speed) we're doomed to repeat this season. Something has to give with this team and I think it is all system and lineup decisions.

[Hockey_Ninja]

Tbh I’m tired of winning the advanced stats battles. It clearly isn’t resulting in wins

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

I think he needs an elite player, or 2 for his system to work. He had that last season. My worry is we bring in another coach and end up with a bunch of players dictating play, like we had before Sutter. I am sure he is frustrated too because the guys he counts on don't seem to show up. Johnny G would put the whole team on his back and make a pass or shot for a goal. Where is that now? Brad should have signed Johnny G sooner and gave him what he wanted. Instead we are stuck with a couple guys getting paid but don't drive the play or show up. These were not the players Sutter was given when he chose to coach the Flames. This might partly explain his unusual stubborn approach this season.

Well those players especially Tkachuk didn't want to play for him anymore.

We got players who want to be here.

It's his job to maximize their performance and he isn't doing that.

[Enoch Root]

I don't think Kaprisov is a fair comparison to Huberdeau (this season) at all.

First of all, Kaprisov flies the zone all the time, while no one on the Flames is allowed to. Second, he plays a tremendous amount of east-west hockey, which no one on the Flames is allowed to do. Third, his line is allowed to carry it in at their discretion - his line isn't playing dump and chase. If you watch Kaprisov, he has the green light to play his own game.

Ass for Huberdeau and the Flames, they are playing a pretty strict north-south game, they dump and chase most of the time, unless they have a clear odd man rush, and they forego the pass through the middle, in favour of the safer paly, almost every time. All of these things are mandated by the coach (with some discretion, obviously).

I don't know how anybody isn't seeing these things. There is no question that the Flames' forwards make the 'safer' play, nine times out of ten. And OF COURSE that's going to result in higher shot volume (because they are maintaining possession, and favouring the shot over the pass, most of the time) and fewer dangerous chances, because they rarely make the goalie move, which, with today's equipment, is almost a must if you want to score. Yes, they get high danger chances (not everything is from the outside), but even when they do, they are rarely making the goalie move laterally.

You can argue that is because the team has no talent, but I am of the opinion that it is a product of the system and the style of play that is being demanded.

As for Toffoli, his game suits a shoot-first play style, and I don't see it as at all surprising that he is having a good year while some of the other guys are struggling.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I don't think Kaprisov is a fair comparison to Huberdeau (this season) at all.

First of all, Kaprisov flies the zone all the time, while no one on the Flames is allowed to. Second, he plays a tremendous amount of east-west hockey, which no one on the Flames is allowed to do. Third, his line is allowed to carry it in at their discretion - his line isn't playing dump and chase. If you watch Kaprisov, he has the green light to play his own game.

Ass for Huberdeau and the Flames, they are playing a pretty strict north-south game, they dump and chase most of the time, unless they have a clear odd man rush, and they forego the pass through the middle, in favour of the safer paly, almost every time. All of these things are mandated by the coach (with some discretion, obviously).

I don't know how anybody isn't seeing these things. There is no question that the Flames' forwards make the 'safer' play, nine times out of ten. And OF COURSE that's going to result in higher shot volume (because they are maintaining possession, and favouring the shot over the pass, most of the time) and fewer dangerous chances, because they rarely make the goalie move, which, with today's equipment, is almost a must if you want to score. Yes, they get high danger chances (not everything is from the outside), but even when they do, they are rarely making the goalie move laterally.

You can argue that is because the team has no talent, but I am of the opinion that it is a product of the system and the style of play that is being demanded.

As for Toffoli, his game suits a shoot-first play style, and I don't see it as at all surprising that he is having a good year while some of the other guys are struggling.

Thanks for summarizing my thoughts well without my wall of text lol.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I just want to point out that the team didn't do very well under Sutter at first either, but last year you had 2 superstars who were entering contract years, and played out of their minds to elevate them from a solid playoff team to a great one...and then they fizzled in the playoffs.

I just think that you cannot be too wistful about the past. It's all about what have you done for me lately, unfortunately. I'm not keen to show Sutter the door because I know he can be a good coach, but let's face facts here, he's done a very, very poor job handling this team this year. You only have to look at the inconsistency from night to night to understand what's wrong. Either he doesn't know what buttons to push, or simply refuses to push those buttons out of stubbornness, or even worse, the team simply doesn't respond to any of his methods any longer and have tuned him out. No matter the reason, the things you see from this team indicate a broken relationship with the coach. Maybe it can be fixed, but knowing Sutter's history in other locations, I doubt it can.

It's all about assessing the problems with the team's performance and making the appropriate changes, even if that means firing a 2 time stanley cup winning coach who is coming off a Jack Adams award. If you see his methods as being a distinct issue that cannot be corrected, the only prudent thing is to fire him and find another strategy. It's just the way it goes sometimes.

Personally, I would be tempted to approach it by keeping the band together for next season. Give them a chance to show if they can come together better after a long summer off. If they're not back at the top of the standings by the trade deadline and looking like a contender again, accept that this group is never going to go anywhere. Replace Sutter with a guy who's likely to pump some offensive stats, hope that Huberdeau, Kadri etc. start putting up good numbers again, then trade them at the following deadline. Burn it down and move on in a new direction entirely.

Also, never bring back the curse of the pedestal jerseys

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

See, to me that doesn't pass the smell test, the eye test, or the outcomes. At some point these counting stats have to align with actual results. This stat is questionable at best.



This even seems a little high. Do you have the corresponding stat for how many times the Flames hit the end boards from home plate?



I think it has a lot more to do with scoring off the rush. The Flames were dangerous because they actually tried to score off the rush. It also doesn't help that the guy Sutter has fed prime time to fill the net crasher role can't take a pass or shoot to save his life. Better utilization of the players available would probably help here.



Definitely more of the latter than the former. Sutter's continual forcing of players into slots in the lineup is killing this team.



It's possible, but unless the GM (whoever that will be) refuses to bring in veterans on their last legs that Sutter will play over guys with some upside (and speed) we're doomed to repeat this season. Something has to give with this team and I think it is all system and lineup decisions.

Yeah lacking off the rush for sure.

The stats are pretty easy to defend. They're a simple count done by two different websites from an objective standpoint.

The Flames are a top ten team in home plate shots. That's a fact ... any individual's eye test is an aside.

The expected goal thing is historical based math on shot volume from outside the homeplate, inside the homeplate and inside the homeplate off a deflection, rebound or tip.

I do wonder if the Flames have found a way to break the model when it comes to high shot volume from the low to medium variety. Seeing with Carolina as well.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I don't think Kaprisov is a fair comparison to Huberdeau (this season) at all.

First of all, Kaprisov flies the zone all the time, while no one on the Flames is allowed to. Second, he plays a tremendous amount of east-west hockey, which no one on the Flames is allowed to do. Third, his line is allowed to carry it in at their discretion - his line isn't playing dump and chase. If you watch Kaprisov, he has the green light to play his own game.

Ass for Huberdeau and the Flames, they are playing a pretty strict north-south game, they dump and chase most of the time, unless they have a clear odd man rush, and they forego the pass through the middle, in favour of the safer paly, almost every time. All of these things are mandated by the coach (with some discretion, obviously).

I don't know how anybody isn't seeing these things. There is no question that the Flames' forwards make the 'safer' play, nine times out of ten. And OF COURSE that's going to result in higher shot volume (because they are maintaining possession, and favouring the shot over the pass, most of the time) and fewer dangerous chances, because they rarely make the goalie move, which, with today's equipment, is almost a must if you want to score. Yes, they get high danger chances (not everything is from the outside), but even when they do, they are rarely making the goalie move laterally.

You can argue that is because the team has no talent, but I am of the opinion that it is a product of the system and the style of play that is being demanded.

As for Toffoli, his game suits a shoot-first play style, and I don't see it as at all surprising that he is having a good year while some of the other guys are struggling.

I hope you're right.

It gives some hope that things can be different with the same roster.

But I do wonder if the team lacks the one on one skills to create some of the chances they're lacking.

I'd agree you're not going to fly the zone in a Sutter system, but then I doubt you can in most systems. But I can't see a coach saying they have to shoot instead of creating a more dangerous chance, which we saw last season.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I hope you're right.

It gives some hope that things can be different with the same roster.

But I do wonder if the team lacks the one on one skills to create some of the chances they're lacking.

I'd agree you're not going to fly the zone in a Sutter system, but then I doubt you can in most systems. But I can't see a coach saying they have to shoot instead of creating a more dangerous chance, which we saw last season.

Just reading the PGT from the Ducks game, and many people are lamenting the play by Kadri where he didn't pass it back to Huberdeau. First, yes, Kadri seems to lack some vision with his passing game, but to my point above, this has been a problem all year - there have been instances EVERY GAME, where there were opportunities to pass that were ignored, in favour of the shot on net or the rim around the boards to the point. And not just one or two per game, but often many times per night.

Is it the players? In the Kadri example, yes, at least some of that is on him. But with the regular occurrences over the coarse of the season, it is hard to say that all of the players have somehow lost their ability to be creative. The more plausible scenario is that they are being mandated to play that way.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Just reading the PGT from the Ducks game, and many people are lamenting the play by Kadri where he didn't pass it back to Huberdeau. First, yes, Kadri seems to lack some vision with his passing game, but to my point above, this has been a problem all year - there have been instances EVERY GAME, where there were opportunities to pass that were ignored, in favour of the shot on net or the rim around the boards to the point. And not just one or two per game, but often many times per night.

Is it the players? In the Kadri example, yes, at least some of that is on him. But with the regular occurrences over the coarse of the season, it is hard to say that all of the players have somehow lost their ability to be creative. The more plausible scenario is that they are being mandated to play that way.

But we see Backlund stick handle the puck off the side wall and go through player's feet and dangle.

We see Dube taking the puck wide with speed.

We see Mangiapane come out from behind the net and drive to the middle.

None of those are shoot the puck or else, or don't turn it over or else, or rim it or else.

And we see those nightly.

Kadri is either selfish as hell or very limited in what he sees on the ice.

Not sure I agree that they're being mandated at all (and I'm tired of Sutter too).