Practice Notes - Mar 9

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

He's averaging 11.05. Only a minute less at 5v5 than the top line players.

Compare this to top teams like Boston or Tampa or Colorado etc and you see a much more sensible disparity from Top 6 to bottom 3 of 3-4 minutes.

That is 3-4 minutes in a game where this team is literally tripping over themselves in their own zone and struggling to not only not score, but not get scored on themselves. Shelled really.

Our Top 9 players are actually extremely effective at 5v5. They should be rolled heavily all game with the bottom line limited to 8-9 mins max of 5v5 ice time. They are trash and actively hindering the team from winning night in an night out.

Lucic played third line to start the season and 2nd line for about 7 weeks around and after Xmas.

Since Feb 1st he's at 10.5

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by flamesgod

That probably just means they are Sutters top line.

Very true.

But if you're bemoaning a lack of ice time for Lindholm, Toffoli, Huberdeau and Kadri Backlund's line is stealing 3/4 of the extra.

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

He's averaging 11.05. Only a minute less at 5v5 than the top line players.

Compare this to top teams like Boston or Tampa or Colorado etc and you see a much more sensible disparity from Top 6 to bottom 3 of 3-4 minutes.

That is 3-4 minutes in a game where this team is literally tripping over themselves in their own zone and struggling to not only not score, but not get scored on themselves. Shelled really.

Our Top 9 players are actually extremely effective at 5v5. They should be rolled heavily all game with the bottom line limited to 8-9 mins max of 5v5 ice time. They are trash and actively hindering the team from winning night in an night out.

Ya, I can't say I disagree with this on paper. But Sutters coaching style demands a lot mentally and physically. Over an 82 game schedule, I imagine it would be pretty taxing, when you are expected to play hard in all 3 zones all the time. I do think there's more room to cut down the 4th lines icetime in the 3rd period of tight games though.

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Very true.

But if you're bemoaning a lack of ice time for Lindholm, Toffoli, Huberdeau and Kadri Backlund's line is stealing 3/4 of the extra.

For sure, that Backlund line has been solid though. So I don't fault Sutter for playing them the way he does.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Lucic played third line to start the season and 2nd line for about 7 weeks around and after Xmas.

Since Feb 1st he's at 10.5

You are correct.

2.5 minutes more than he should be, in my opinion.

[Bingo]

Just ran the data across the league.

Flames top six skaters (includes Backlund's line) averages 12.94 min/game (NHL Average 13.6)

Flames 4th line (skaters 10-12) average 10.39 (NHL average 10.57).

So as the season has gone along other teams have started using their fourth lines more and the gap flipped.

If I force the Flames into their actual line order they have the least ice time for the top six and the most for the third line.

The fourth line doesn't change.

[GullFoss]

That makes sense because our third line has been the best line

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Just ran the data across the league.

Flames top six skaters (includes Backlund's line) averages 12.94 min/game (NHL Average 13.6)

Flames 4th line (skaters 10-12) average 10.39 (NHL average 10.57).

So as the season has gone along other teams have started using their fourth lines more and the gap flipped.

If I force the Flames into their actual line order they have the least ice time for the top six and the most for the third line.

The fourth line doesn't change.

Which site are you using? I am not questioning, just want to make sure I am informed when i go on a little tirade. Haha.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Which site are you using? I am not questioning, just want to make sure I am informed when i go on a little tirade. Haha.

I used natural stat trick

They don't give you that kind of breakdown, you need to model the hell out of it.

[Infinit47]

The issue isn't necessarily that the 4th line is getting 10-12 minutes, it's that Lucic should not be an everyday fixture on that line.

I actually think he is quite effective on the forecheck and causing havoc in the offensive zone, but when the Flames fall into man on man coverage in the defensive zone Lucic just can't keep up with the opposing forwards. It's here that he really seems to hurt the team.

I listened to the away broadcast of the last Minny game and the announcers spoke about how the Flames just couldn't get any momentum going in the last two periods. The next three shifts went as follows:

Kadri line got some ozone time, slight momentum
Lindholm line, more ozone time and continue momentum
4th line - hemmed in Flames end, barely chip the puck out for a scrambled change with the oncoming line already on their heels.

It was a complete reversal of momentum.

It's as much Sutter's deployment strategy of the 4th line as their total minutes. I'd love to see Lucic play half the games to allow him to amp up in between.

There is no reason Duehr can't trade off with Lucic at the min.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

The issue isn't necessarily that the 4th line is getting 10-12 minutes, it's that Lucic should not be an everyday fixture on that line.

I actually think he is quite effective on the forecheck and causing havoc in the offensive zone, but when the Flames fall into man on man coverage in the defensive zone Lucic just can't keep up with the opposing forwards. It's here that he really seems to hurt the team.

I listened to the away broadcast of the last Minny game and the announcers spoke about how the Flames just couldn't get any momentum going in the last two periods. The next three shifts went as follows:

Kadri line got some ozone time, slight momentum
Lindholm line, more ozone time and continue momentum
4th line - hemmed in Flames end, barely chip the puck out for a scrambled change with the oncoming line already on their heels.

It was a complete reversal of momentum.

It's as much Sutter's deployment strategy of the 4th line as their total minutes. I'd love to see Lucic play half the games to allow him to amp up in between.

There is no reason Duehr can't trade off with Lucic at the min.

Bold is exactly right. The other issue is that Lucic still wants to do things his body can't. He takes an extra forecheck foray at almost every end of shift and then gets stuck having to backcheck (and thus misses a linechange).

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Bingo

As I've said all along there is an element of intangibles that has to play into it. So the quick dismissal of some fans doesn't work for me.

But he's struggled, and I agree there are better options.

But he's averaging 10.5 minutes not 12-13

Perhaps I've missed it, but I haven't ever seen proof that having a tough guy in the lineup makes any difference to a team's ability. There's a ton of myth's in sports from 20 years ago that pro teams have moved away from as there is no proof they lead to success.

Originally Posted by Bingo

Just ran the data across the league.

Flames top six skaters (includes Backlund's line) averages 12.94 min/game (NHL Average 13.6)

Flames 4th line (skaters 10-12) average 10.39 (NHL average 10.57).

So as the season has gone along other teams have started using their fourth lines more and the gap flipped.

If I force the Flames into their actual line order they have the least ice time for the top six and the most for the third line.

The fourth line doesn't change.

The problem is we are deploying a 2006 4th line winger and giving him 2023 4th line winger minutes.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Perhaps I've missed it, but I haven't ever seen proof that having a tough guy in the lineup makes any difference to a team's ability. There's a ton of myth's in sports from 20 years ago that pro teams have moved away from as there is no proof they lead to success.




The problem is we are deploying a 2006 4th line winger and giving him 2023 4th line winger minutes.

Just summarizing the change in fourth line usage for the Flames compared to the rest of the league.

I've said a few times in this topic that I agree they should change the fourth line up.

Also don't think the difference between options for forward #12 is all that big a deal in the big scheme of things.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

The issue isn't necessarily that the 4th line is getting 10-12 minutes, it's that Lucic should not be an everyday fixture on that line.

I actually think he is quite effective on the forecheck and causing havoc in the offensive zone, but when the Flames fall into man on man coverage in the defensive zone Lucic just can't keep up with the opposing forwards. It's here that he really seems to hurt the team.

I listened to the away broadcast of the last Minny game and the announcers spoke about how the Flames just couldn't get any momentum going in the last two periods. The next three shifts went as follows:

Kadri line got some ozone time, slight momentum
Lindholm line, more ozone time and continue momentum
4th line - hemmed in Flames end, barely chip the puck out for a scrambled change with the oncoming line already on their heels.

It was a complete reversal of momentum.

It's as much Sutter's deployment strategy of the 4th line as their total minutes. I'd love to see Lucic play half the games to allow him to amp up in between.

There is no reason Duehr can't trade off with Lucic at the min.

This if he used them sparingly 5v5 it would be passable but he rolls 4 lines and its maddening. Zero line matches to keep them away from playing against the other teams top line. Just keep rolling them out. That 4th line is a momentum killer just like the Backlund line creates pressure and momentum only to have Lucic go out and kill it.

If he skipped them every other shift it might work. Also deploying one of the better lines after a shift by Backlund and his line might lead to more offence as the line coming on has some momentum to build off. It would be interesting to see what line gets the most shifts after a Backlunds line was out.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Just summarizing the change in fourth line usage for the Flames compared to the rest of the league.

I've said a few times in this topic that I agree they should change the fourth line up.

Also don't think the difference between options for forward #12 is all that big a deal in the big scheme of things.

You could change your username to "Messenger". You get shot a lot