Russia invades Ukraine

[burn_this_city]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1634204431427284996

[CroFlames]

That was one massive leap of logic after another. I won't even counter all those points.



But I will say Sweden and Finland intend to join NATO on their own volition, not because Dark Brandon and The Deep State made them.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

https://twitter.com/user/status/1634204431427284996

Wow, the Ukrainian President, Finnish PM and the Ukrainian defense minister.



Massive acts of Ukrainian heroism throughout the war, but I think this guy becomes THE symbol of the war, and Ukrainian identity moving forward.


Slava.

[Azure]

IMO, the EU was extremely complacent prior to the conflict.

Just a complete lackluster approach to what was turning into a very big problem with them being so dependent on Russian gas.

The conflict changed a lot of that, made them work together, and countries that previously weren't part of NATO, or were even on the conversation are now likely to join. That is a win for NATO & the US, who has been lobbying for years to get NATO countries to take European security more serious. So whether or not it happens on their own volition NOW is irrelevant. It never would have happened prior to the conflict.

And if you think the US isn't playing this to their advantage, go look at how the theatre has changed in the South China Sea the past 5-10 years in terms of US presence. Pretty clear what mandate they are following. And I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but rather that people understand how the biggest player in the room is operating.

[Bonded]

Russia has done a really good job with turning on the propaganda machines in the US. It blows my mind that there are Amercians who are publicly calling for the US to cozy up to Russia. Trump coming out and saying he'd concede to Russia would have been political suicide into at least the late 90s for sure. Trump would be the US Putin if he could and people are okay with that.

I think the Western world has forgotten what war and food insecurity looks like and have become complacent.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Azure

I personally don't care about European energy concerns. If Canada were smart we would be taking advantage of them right now as well.



My concern is the end game here.



Russia is going to keep sending thousands of their people into the meat grinder.



The US and the west is going to keep supplying resources, money and weapons for obvious reasons.



Despite this advantage to Ukraine, it is still resulting in entire cities being razed by Russia in their meat grinder, constant attacks on civilian centers (see the other day), etc.



Ukraine is thus going to ask for either weapons to properly drive Russia back (say F-16s or more air power & heavy long range artillery).



What happens then?



If you agree Putin is a madman, and the Russians are morally corrupt, what is going to stop them from using nuclear weapons? Right now they have zero problem targeting civilian buildings. We have evidence of mass graves going back to last year, evidence of rape. We know they are recruiting people from prison to join Wagner.

Who thinks the mass graves and rape will stop if Ukraine gives those citizens over to the Russians? How would a nuclear weapon help Putin here? It wouldn't help strategically or operationally and he'd lose the tacit support from China and India. There's no benefit, and his "madman" personality is not shared by anyone who's spent time studying the man.

This doesn't end with someone in Putin's circle killing him, especially if you believe that he has a lot of support from his inner circle, and that they are as morally corrupt as he is.



On top of that, I don't for a second believe the US cares about Ukraine for any other reason than to destabilize Russia, carve out EU industry to make them more dependent on US resources, and further push NATO into Eastern Europe. Once they feel they have accomplished their goal, they will pull back, and the mandate & rhetoric will change. The most obvious issue being getting Sweden & Finland to join NATO, and getting Russia to deescalate in exchange for an agreement that Ukraine will not be joining NATO.

That's extremely cynical and I'm not sure I share your prediction or perceived motivations here for any of this. The whole Western world and Europe have lined up behind Ukraine for moral reasons and yes, strategic ones. You think the US will pull back once *checks notes* the EU relies on them for energy and the Nordic countries join NATO? Shouldn't they be pulling out now then?

Once that happens, Ukraine will have to accept whatever terms imposed on them, including giving up territory if that is what the US decides.

Why? They won't

[Regorium]

Noone is arguing that the US doesn't benefit from this war. Noone is arguing that the US is doing this altruistically because we love Ukraine or anything.

They've picked a side that advances their interests, and it just so happens that it lines up with what the general public thinks is the "good" side.

The question is why is that surprising to you, or even worthy of conspiratorial thought?

[Azure]

Its not surprising to me.

But given the history of how the US tends to leave countries or regions hanging after spending a certain amount of time 'advancing their interests' it is surprising to me that people think that this conflict won't end the same way.

[Envitro]

I think the U.S. and the EU are investing a lot of time, money, and military industrial capacity to support Ukraine, so there is a clear goal at the end of the rainbow there.

I don't think they're doing it, spending trillions of dollars in military aid and support, just to walk away. Two entirely different scenarios when compared to Iraq/ME.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Envitro

I think the U.S. and the EU are investing a lot of time, money, and military industrial capacity to support Ukraine, so there is a clear goal at the end of the rainbow there.

I don't think they're doing it, spending trillions of dollars in military aid and support, just to walk away. Two entirely different scenarios when compared to Iraq/ME.

Yup. This is a much different situation than anything in the Middle East. This is closer to WW1 and WW2 conflicts with an aggressor seeing how much they can get away with combined with the spectre of China looming over Taiwan and expanding its sphere of influence. This isn’t a war over religion or resources for the West it is a line in the sand to show NATOs and the West’s resolve.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Azure

Its not surprising to me.

But given the history of how the US tends to leave countries or regions hanging after spending a certain amount of time 'advancing their interests' it is surprising to me that people think that this conflict won't end the same way.

It won't end the same way because a strong Ukraine aligns with US and EU strategic interests. In the future after this war is over, US will need a strong ally, i.e. buffer state against renewed Russian aggression.

US and EU will flood Ukraine with rebuild money, much like Germany and Japan before them. Commitments for many of these have been made along with humanitarian aid. Ukrainians have already paid for this in blood. They will not be left hanging.

[afc wimbledon]

The US benefitting from this war only becomes a benefit because Russia started a war, the US doesnt benefit at all from Russia losing a war or generally declining if Russia doesnt start wars, the US doesnt benefit from France or Australia losing a war, it doesnt engineer wars in order to weaken these countries

The only reason a weak Russia is a benefit is because Russia is an expansionist aggressive nation that goes round invading its neighbours, if it wasnt, if it was just a big powerful country that minded its own business then its strength would be a positive

[indes]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Russia has done a really good job with turning on the propaganda machines in the US. It blows my mind that there are Amercians who are publicly calling for the US to cozy up to Russia. Trump coming out and saying he'd concede to Russia would have been political suicide into at least the late 90s for sure. Trump would be the US Putin if he could and people are okay with that.

I think the Western world has forgotten what war and food insecurity looks like and have become complacent.

Hard times create Hard Men

Hard men create easy times

Easy times create weak men

Or so the saying goes

[Sluggo]

Originally Posted by indes

Hard times create Hard Men

Hard men create easy times

Easy times create weak men

Or so the saying goes

Most of the former Warsaw Pact countries' remember how the so called hard men treated them during the 'easy' times... that's the issue.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by indes

Hard times create Hard Men

Hard men create easy times

Easy times create weak men

Or so the saying goes

Some of the hardest men I have met are also some of the gentlest men I have met

[driveway]

Originally Posted by indes

Hard times create Hard Men

Hard men create easy times

Easy times create weak men

Or so the saying goes

This "saying" originated in 2016, in the novel Those Who Remain by G. Michael Hopf, the final book in his postapocalyptic series "The New World."



Here is the blurb for this literary masterpiece, spoilered as, since it's the last book in the series, it likely contains some information that would be considered spoilers for anyone who actually wants to read this series:

Spoiler!

The war between the Republic of Cascadia and the rogue nation Western Canada is raging.

With support from President Cruz in the United States, Gordon Van Zandt has assembled a formidable army to march north and engage the forces of Western Canada, who have occupied much of the panhandle of Idaho. Gordon must defeat Jacques and his army swiftly, but to do so requires a final decisive battle.

This battle will be do or die for Gordon and his fledgling republic, but is not the only problem Gordon is facing.

With much of his attention focused on Jacques, he must also dedicate time to a political war brewing in McCall and Olympia. There he'll discover his adversary is the most cunning and cut throat of any enemy he has ever faced on the battlefield.

When it all ends, some who've stood with Gordon will be lost and those who remain pray that their sacrifices will usher in the new world they've been fighting so hard for.

[Snuffleupagus]

Slightly off topic but I would love to been a fly on the wall when Putin found out that Navalny won the Oscar for best documentary. For those who haven't seen it, it's a must watch.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Wow, the Ukrainian President, Finnish PM and the Ukrainian defense minister.



Massive acts of Ukrainian heroism throughout the war, but I think this guy becomes THE symbol of the war, and Ukrainian identity moving forward.


Slava.

Pardon my ignorance but what's the backstory on this young man in particular? Has to be something beyond patriotic to attract that kind of attention.

So sad for all these losses.

RIP.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Pardon my ignorance but what's the backstory on this young man in particular? Has to be something beyond patriotic to attract that kind of attention.

So sad for all these losses.

RIP.

He was captured.

Instead of panicking, he was smoking a dart casually with Russian guns in his face. He turned to face the captors and said "Slava Ukraini (glory to Ukraine)" and they executed him on the spot without warning, and on camera.

His name was Timofei Shadura. Remember it; every town in Ukraine will have a square named after him.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

He was captured.

Instead of panicking, he was smoking a dart casually with Russian guns in his face. He turned to face the captors and said "Slava Ukraini (glory to Ukraine)" and they executed him on the spot without warning, and on camera.

His name was Timofei Shadura. Remember it; every town in Ukraine will have a square named after him.

That wasn't the guy the funeral was for. The funeral was for Dmytro Kotsyubaylo, who was Ukraine's youngest battalion commander who was killed in Bakhmut. Though he was also a leader of the Right Sector, a far-right nationalist organization, so I'm not sure why Finland's PM wants to be associated with that. Though they've apparently cleaned up their ranks a bit in recent years.