Russia invades Ukraine

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

How many Pointmans are there that didn't make it out, and how many wives and kids of Pointmans that didn't make it out?

Maybe instead of 'orc' or 'Ivan' people should be calling them 'Pointman' when laughing/cheering at a drone video of someone being blown up.

Certainly none that are ####ing executing Ukrainians at point blank.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

How many Pointmans are there that didn't make it out, and how many wives and kids of Pointmans that didn't make it out?

Maybe instead of 'orc' or 'Ivan' people should be calling them 'Pointman' when laughing/cheering at a drone video of someone being blown up.

Im quite sure that there were good Germans during WW2 as well. The point is, while a country is knowingly and purposefully being invaded, women raped and having their children kidnapped, how are they supposed to know which one is the nice guy? I feel for people like Pointman, however we have seen this coming for many years and the Russians dont seem to give a flying F about what Putin did to their country or his leadership style, and for the most part, still dont care.

I suppose the same can be said for the The Uyghurs of western China, most Chinese dont seem to care, and would likely be the same if China invaded Taiwan.


Until the world is in a place where borders are unimportant, and people are free, despots hold their citizens in harms way.

[FlameOn]

Just today there were 50+ Russia missiles that hit civilian targets. What should we call the war criminals who dump incendiary onto cities, execute unarmed POWs, or fire and kill and torture civilians? I wouldn't apply Ivan to all Russians, but that certainly seems to apply to the war criminal group above.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I can't speak for everyone but I can tell you I would never under any circumstance shoot an unarmed person nor would I ever rape a woman/child, as a pilot I would never drop a bomb on a school or a hospital for pregnant women either, nor would I fire a missile into a civilian apartment building, my bombs/missiles would miss those marks. I would rather put a bullet in my own head than to live life tortured with those memory's.

Like god, evil is imaginary but there are people that act "inhuman", most of these wired wrong people are in jails around the world, dead or should be dead.

I question whether this is actually true. I suspect if conscripted most people would find a way to believe the propaganda to justify their actions. You wouldn’t be bombing a hospital you would be bombing what used to be a hospital that is now converted into barracks and weapons storage to disguise the weapons used to threaten your family.

I certainly think better people would avoid the raping and in general torture of people. But I think given the choice between participation and death most would participate.

I’d run first, but if forced to fight or die I’d fight likely regardless of cause. I think most people if put in that position self preservation would kick in.

[burn_this_city]

This may seem crass, but I don't have any sympathy for the average Russian. The idea that this is Putin's war and the Russian people are bystanders is ridiculous.

Most of these guys made an informed decision to go on a business trip to Ukraine for money. All the original invaders were contract soldiers, very few were conscripts pressganged into battle. Before Ukraine, a ton were in Syria bombing civilians at the behest of Assad.

These people all had access to the internet prior to February 2022. They chose to believe their absurd propaganda about their great empire and 2nd Rome. They traded security and economy for liberty, and now they are being annihilated. My sympathy is with the Chechens murdered in the 90s, the Georgians in 2008, and the Ukrainians from 2014 to today. #### the average Russian.

Stop trying to rehabilitate haughty monsters who always thought they were special.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

Thus why I have no issue with calling them orcs or ivans, they're not wired the same as most normal humans around the world. There is some very deep rot in Russian society that allows so many of their men to behave like soulless psychopaths. The optimal scenario in my mind is that this war bankrupts Russia so hard that it collapses as a single entity, and the countries that emerge post-breakup look towards the west to rebuild their economies much like many of the post-USSR countries did. Maybe then their boys and young men will start growing up with empathy and compassion

This is true, and we also know that Wagner is employing lots of criminals as well.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

How many Pointmans are there that didn't make it out, and how many wives and kids of Pointmans that didn't make it out?

Maybe instead of 'orc' or 'Ivan' people should be calling them 'Pointman' when laughing/cheering at a drone video of someone being blown up.

Sorry.

Pointman made a choice to escape with his family. Pointman is not in Ukraine killing civilians

The Russians in Ukraine did not choose to escape or fight their own oppressors, these russians have taken arms to invade a country and have chosen consciously to kill, rape, terrorize and pillage throughout.

Calling Russians killing, raping and pillaging in Ukraine 'Pointman' is an absolute insult to him.

How about we call them 'Paul Bernados' instead. It's far more descriptive of their actions.

I prefer orc.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by driveway

I completely understand where it's coming from, but could we refrain from using language like "Orcs" and "Ivans"?

I am profoundly on the side of Ukraine and wish that the US, Canada, and our NATO allies would start saying things like "We're going to support as long as it takes to win" and to define winning as a full return to the borders established in 1992.

The language of war: Ivan, Jerry, Tommy, Charlie, etc. is specifically for the purpose of dehumanizing the enemy to make it easier for soldiers to kill when they need to. It strips away any kind of individual identity and replaces it with a bland group moniker. "Orc" is particuarly strong as it completely obliterates the humanity of the person onto whom it is placed.

I do not want to 'both sides' this war. The Russians a clearly wrong and need to be defeated. However, even if they are evil, they are not inhuman, and us sitting in our living rooms thousands of miles away don't need to dehumanize them. If a soldier feels the need to use this language in order to psychologically handle the situation in which they find themselves, sure. But on a hockey forum? It's kinda gross. I'd probaby not object to Huntingwhale or Pointman using languge like that, but I don't think any of the rest of us have that level of direct engagement with this conflict, regardless of how much of our day and media diet is engaged with consuming it.

No thanks. Orcs, pigs, war criminals.

[Jacks]

I question whether this is actually true. I suspect if conscripted most people would find a way to believe the propaganda to justify their actions. You wouldn’t be bombing a hospital you would be bombing what used to be a hospital that is now converted into barracks and weapons storage to disguise the weapons used to threaten your family.

I certainly think better people would avoid the raping and in general torture of people. But I think given the choice between participation and death most would participate.

I’d run first, but if forced to fight or die I’d fight likely regardless of cause. I think most people if put in that position self preservation would kick in.

That's understandable but once you decide to start killing innocent people to save your own life you can't expect sympathy or respect.

[Azure]

Except the nature of war is such that innocent people always get killed on both sides, which is why its tough to pin it down on individual people.

The US as an example has with their drone operations killed how many thousands of innocent people the past decade? One could make the argument that Obama, as the President who most aggressively expanded the program, should be the one held liable for war crimes due to how removed the actual operators of the drones or the people in the field are from the actual kill site. But for some reason people give him a pass, and even look on him fondly as a formidable POTUS.

War is not as simple as this side good / that side bad.

That being said, we have more than enough evidence that there was and is a lot of mass killings, murder, rape being committed by Russian troops, which if anyone has followed Wagner, isn't really surprised. So to me, it is valid to refer to the Russian troops in the way that many here do, and many in Ukraine do, as they have not followed even the standard code of conflict.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Azure

Except the nature of war is such that innocent people always get killed on both sides, which is why its tough to pin it down on individual people.

The US as an example has with their drone operations killed how many thousands of innocent people the past decade? One could make the argument that Obama, as the President who most aggressively expanded the program, should be the one held liable for war crimes due to how removed the actual operators of the drones or the people in the field are from the actual kill site. But for some reason people give him a pass, and even look on him fondly as a formidable POTUS.

War is not as simple as this side good / that side bad.

That being said, we have more than enough evidence that there was and is a lot of mass killings, murder, rape being committed by Russian troops, which if anyone has followed Wagner, isn't really surprised. So to me, it is valid to refer to the Russian troops in the way that many here do, and many in Ukraine do, as they have not followed even the standard code of conflict.

It could not be any clearer, Ukraine is the good side.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Jacks

That's understandable but once you decide to start killing innocent people to save your own life you can't expect sympathy or respect.

So do you launch a missile at the hospital turned arms depot?
Do you shoot back when on the front line or turn your back and be shot for desertion? Until you cross the line defined by Nuremberg where obeying orders is no longer an excuse I don’t think we should be dehumanizing people.

[nik-]

Then don't do it.

[peter12]

The nature of Ukraine's defense against Russian aggression is so clearly just and good that for anyone to argue otherwise or try to muddy the waters is dumb and makes me lose any respect I had for you.

[greyshep]

Originally Posted by peter12

The nature of Ukraine's defense against Russian aggression is so clearly just and good that for anyone to argue otherwise or try to muddy the waters is dumb and makes me lose any respect I had for you.

Unfortunately there has been a consistent trend of this on here lately. Some specific folks I can think of.

[Azure]

Who is muddying the water? I think its been a very interesting discussion in regards to how dehumanized this war is becoming, and how many in the West look at it.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Azure

Who is muddying the water? I think its been a very interesting discussion in regards to how dehumanized this war is becoming, and how many in the West look at it.

You are trying to muddy the water saying it's not as simple as this side good/that side bad.

I'll say again: It cannot be any clearer that Ukraine is the good side.

Ukraine just minding it's own business, trying to modernize it's society and Russia invades.

It really is that simple.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Azure

Except the nature of war is such that innocent people always get killed on both sides, which is why its tough to pin it down on individual people.

The US as an example has with their drone operations killed how many thousands of innocent people the past decade? One could make the argument that Obama, as the President who most aggressively expanded the program, should be the one held liable for war crimes due to how removed the actual operators of the drones or the people in the field are from the actual kill site. But for some reason people give him a pass, and even look on him fondly as a formidable POTUS.

War is not as simple as this side good / that side bad.

That being said, we have more than enough evidence that there was and is a lot of mass killings, murder, rape being committed by Russian troops, which if anyone has followed Wagner, isn't really surprised. So to me, it is valid to refer to the Russian troops in the way that many here do, and many in Ukraine do, as they have not followed even the standard code of conflict.

Is there an example where Obama purposely ordered strikes on civilians? if criminal terrorists were allowed to hide behind civilians and not be touched we'd probably be all dead by now.

Collateral damage happens in most wars, what Putin and his thugs are doing is not collateral damage.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

You are trying to muddy the water saying it's not as simple as this side good/that side bad.

I'll say again: It cannot be any clearer that Ukraine is the good side.

Ukraine just minding it's own business, trying to modernize it's society and Russia invades.

It really is that simple.

I said war is not as simple as this side good / that side bad. Which has proven to be true since the beginning of history.

As much as I believe Ukraine is justified in their actions, I think there will come a point at which Ukraine will want to deescalate the conflict, or at least negotiate something to stop entire cities from being razed, and the West won't allow them because the war benefits the US, and the US military industrial complex. Which goes back to my comment about this side good / that side bad.

Get it? I can believe Ukraine is justified in their actions, and yet understand that there are players in this conflict who will use them to get what they want.

[greyshep]

Originally Posted by Azure

I said war is not as simple as this side good / that side bad. Which has proven to be true since the beginning of history.

As much as I believe Ukraine is justified in their actions, I think there will come a point at which Ukraine will want to deescalate the conflict, or at least negotiate something to stop entire cities from being razed, and the West won't allow them because the war benefits the US, and the US military industrial complex. Which goes back to my comment about this side good / that side bad.

Get it? I can believe Ukraine is justified in their actions, and yet understand that there are players in this conflict who will use them to get what they want.

So you believe its going to be incumbent on the country that is being attacked to de-escalate?

Just making sure I understand you correctly here.