[PGT] Flames 0 - Wild 3

[dieHARDflameZ]

The amount of people saying they should have traded Huberdeau at the trade deadline is comical. When has that ever happened in the history of the NHL that a guy gets traded before his freshly signed eight year contract has even kicked in?

You want to decrease free agents or players willingness to come to Calgary or re-sign long term?

[Ped]

How does it quash the theory? Sutter was already coach when Gaudreau/Tkachuk left. Treliving had a chance to remake this team last summer, and this was what he came up with.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by dieHARDflameZ

The amount of people saying they should have traded Huberdeau at the trade deadline is comical. When has that ever happened in the history of the NHL that a guy gets traded before his freshly signed eight year contract has even kicked in?

You want to decrease free agents or players willingness to come to Calgary or re-sign long term?

He has negative value, even if you want, you can’t trade him without some hefty retention or future

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by dieHARDflameZ

The amount of people saying they should have traded Huberdeau at the trade deadline is comical. When has that ever happened in the history of the NHL that a guy gets traded before his freshly signed eight year contract has even kicked in?

You want to decrease free agents or players willingness to come to Calgary or re-sign long term?

Jeff Carter was traded before his 11 year extension kicked in.

[dieHARDflameZ]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Jeff Carter was traded before his 11 year extension kicked in.

Okay cool, so one time in NHL history?

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by dieHARDflameZ

Okay cool, so one time in NHL history?

Well you did ask when it had ever happened and he gave you an example. Sheesh don’t be so sensitive.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Lindholm’s second best season is 78 points and 29 goals, he will not end up anywhere near that. Do I think players in the prime of their career should be within striking distance of their top seasons, sure, yes I do. And by that metric the Flames have a number of players that are underperforming, the majority of their top 9 and their top 4 dman and their goalies.

And you clearly have not “looked up” the stats unless you actually think in the final 19 games Lindholm is going to get 12 goals and 17 assists for 29 points to be close to his second best season.

Mangiapane on pace for his worst goals per game season in the last 4 years, within striking distance of having his worst points per game in the last 4 years.

Markstrom’s worst season as a pro.

There are a number of players playing at or just slightly below their expected average and 4 players (Lindholm, Huberdeau, Mangiapane and Markstrom) who are absolutely putrid. Sutter is getting the best out of almost nobody and is getting average out of very few.

If Lindholm keeps his pace he’ll land around 10 points behind his second best season and over 10 points ahead of his third. PTS/60 He’s 0.2 off the pace of his second best season. That’s without a Gaudreau, Tkachuk, or even prime-level Monahan to play with.

Saying Lindholm or even Mangiapane are “putrid” just means your expectations are out of touch with reality.

Backlund, Andersson, Dube, Toffoli, are set to meet or exceed their career best.

Lindholm, Coleman are well above their career average.

Hanifin, Kadri, Tanev are just above his career average. Mangiapane is right in-line with his career average.

Who is left of the top 9 and top 4 that are supposedly underperforming? Huberdeau and Weegar… two players out of 13. I’m bad at math but I don’t think that’s a majority. Or everyone is just supposed to be the best ever?

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Hard not to when you look at the team on an individual to individual level and the only players that are major outliers compared to their career averages are Huberdeau and the goaltenders. He puts up even average numbers and we’re in the mix. I don’t actually know how you can call him anything but garbage this year or blame the struggling offence on anyone else when everyone else is contributing at (at very least, and in most cases a lot more) an acceptable level.

I agree that dropping Sutter is easier, no question. But he’s working for everyone else and I don’t think anyone would argue we’ve somehow been so lucky that we end up with bad coaches far more than good ones. If you swap the coach to appease Huberdeau and it makes every other aspect of the team worse, is that worth it? Because then we’re right back to “fire everyone,” no?

Huberdeau had a very good game after the agent had spoken up, "as he put it it" lit a fire under him". He is a lot better than he has shown. Changing coaches just sends the wrong message unfortunately. Hopefully an infusion of young players come in and push the pace and add some scoring to offset the lack of production.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

If Lindholm keeps his pace he’ll land around 10 points behind his second best season and over 10 points ahead of his third. PTS/60 He’s 0.2 off the pace of his second best season. That’s without a Gaudreau, Tkachuk, or even prime-level Monahan to play with.

Saying Lindholm or even Mangiapane are “putrid” just means your expectations are out of touch with reality.

Backlund, Andersson, Dube, Toffoli, are set to meet or exceed their career best.

Lindholm, Coleman are well above their career average.

Hanifin, Kadri, Tanev are just above his career average. Mangiapane is right in-line with his career average.

Who is left of the top 9 and top 4 that are supposedly underperforming? Huberdeau and Weegar… two players out of 13. I’m bad at math but I don’t think that’s a majority. Or everyone is just supposed to be the best ever?

Lindholm is significantly below is career average for the past 5 years. And his third best season was a 69 point pace, could be get 18 points in his last 19 games, maybe. But in all likelihood this will be his second worst season in the last 5 years. But include his 21 year old year if that makes it look better.

Mangiapane is a 26 year old player who is going to be worse than he was when he was 23, that is tough to do.



But if we are using entire career averages then

Lucic is significantly below is career average

[jlh2640]

It’s amazing to me that Mangiapane scored 36 goals last year. He may not even get 15. He has not been nearly good enough this year. As many, but he’s one that often gets forgotten while every hates on Huberdeau and others.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Lindholm is significantly below is career average for the past 5 years. And his third best season was a 69 point pace, could be get 18 points in his last 19 games, maybe. But in all likelihood this will be his second worst season in the last 5 years. But include his 21 year old year if that makes it look better.

Mangiapane is a 26 year old player who is going to be worse than he was when he was 23, that is tough to do.



But if we are using entire career averages then

Lucic is significantly below is career average

Lindholm is on the same pace for 3 of the last 4 yrs

He is what he is without a star line mate picking him up

[dieHARDflameZ]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Well you did ask when it had ever happened and he gave you an example. Sheesh don’t be so sensitive.

I wasn’t being sensitive at all, I was responding to the information that it’s happened one time in NHL history.

So effectively the odds they move Huberdeau are far less than 1%. Cool.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by dieHARDflameZ

I wasn’t being sensitive at all, I was responding to the information that it’s happened one time in NHL history.

So effectively the odds they move Huberdeau are far less than 1%. Cool.

That was the one that was sitting freshly in my mind. I'd be surprised if it was the only time it has happened, but yeah - you threw out the question and discarded the idea of it as being absurd...but there we are.

Once Huby was extended, I didn't expect he'd ever be entertained in trade conversations - ditto for Weegar, but a number of insiders had Weegar involved in rumours just this past month. So who knows what happens.

I also think that conversations regarding trading Huberdeau after one season are silly. He's an incredibly talented player. If the organization can't figure it out here, it's on the organization. If we happen to trade him, I have no doubt he'd explode the next place he goes.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by jlh2640

It’s amazing to me that Mangiapane scored 36 goals last year. He may not even get 15. He has not been nearly good enough this year. As many, but he’s one that often gets forgotten while every hates on Huberdeau and others.

Mangi has been struggling since mid last year.

He is more ‘normal’ now than that hot streak

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Lindholm is on the same pace for 3 of the last 4 yrs

He is what he is without a star line mate picking him up

For 3 of the last 4 years he has been a 70-80 point guy. He will get 60 points this year, maybe 65 if he goes on a real heater. Significant drop off from his average, about a 20% reduction.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Lindholm is significantly below is career average for the past 5 years. And his third best season was a 69 point pace, could be get 18 points in his last 19 games, maybe. But in all likelihood this will be his second worst season in the last 5 years. But include his 21 year old year if that makes it look better.

Mangiapane is a 26 year old player who is going to be worse than he was when he was 23, that is tough to do.



But if we are using entire career averages then

Lucic is significantly below is career average

Oh no… the Lucic that is basically keeping a 4th line spot on good will alone is below his career average. Fire everyone…

If you want to pick and choose “well if you look at these few years or those few years and if you look at what he was on pace for in this season but his actuals in that season” then you’re just going to land on whatever answer you want to land on, and at that point go nuts, I’m not worried about convincing you.

Take Lindholm out and call him “putrid” for being on the same pace as his third best season in terms of pace, go nuts. That’s still 4 guys at or above their career best and 4 guys at or well above their career average. Outside of picking and choosing stats, I’m not seeing a majority of under performers, and 4 players having their best seasons is a pretty generous “almost” in terms of Sutter getting the best out of nobody. But beat that drum if you like the sound.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

For 3 of the last 4 years he has been a 70-80 point guy. He will get 60 points this year, maybe 65 if he goes on a real heater. Significant drop off from his average, about a 20% reduction.

Don’t want to ruin your math but he’s on pace for 67 points over 80 games, all while being “putrid.” Good for second highest point total over the last 4 years and second highest point pace. So I assume a heater would knock him into the 70-75 range.

Why make things up?

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by jlh2640

It’s amazing to me that Mangiapane scored 36 goals last year. He may not even get 15. He has not been nearly good enough this year. As many, but he’s one that often gets forgotten while every hates on Huberdeau and others.

Lots of fans knew last year was a fluke offensive season where he had a lucky streak and an unsustainable shooting percentage. Brad should not have given them that contract and we knew it.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Mangi has been struggling since mid last year.

He is more ‘normal’ now than that hot streak

18G 25A 43P in the last 82 regular season games. $5.8M seems like a bit much. Looks like a short term deal was the right call.

[Saqe]

Sutter can take some blame how he has handled the situation off and on the ice but overall it comes down the Markstrom and Huberdeau.


If Markstrom has a career average year and Huby puts up 40 more points (either assisting or scoring = 40 more goals for the flames) none of these conversations are had.
Changing Sutter maybe gets Huberdeau going but at what cost? You're not getting a better coach in exchange.