American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Sliver

What about maybe everyone can't do everything. If you transition from MtoF and you aren't allowed to compete in CIS female sports, maybe that's just the crappy hand you've been dealt on that issue.

Maybe. For the sake of fairness, though, why not break everything down my body type as well? If a cis girl has a more masculine build or other distinct physical advantages, she probably shouldn’t be allowed to compete, right? Especially if her build is more masculine than a trans girl’s build (which is not uncommon).

Is it fair for smaller, more slender men to have to compete in men’s hockey against men 7 or 8 inches taller and 80 pounds heavier? Tough to say, maybe it isn’t, maybe we should put a stop to it.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Sliver

If a transition from MtoF begins after puberty, then it obviously becomes more difficult. Does just lowering testosterone even the playing field so it's a fair competition between MtoF trans and CIS females? I don't know. I have one customer who is MtoF trans and she's as big as I am. If she were to join - say - wrestling or boxing or something, I don't see how she wouldn't dominate. Like, even if you could reduce her muscle mass then she would still have a huge reach, larger hands, etc. I can't see it being fair.

My understanding is, if you adjust for height and weight, there's still a difference but it's not considerable. So the thinking goes, since we don't restrict for height and weight in female sports, then we shouldn't restrict male-to-female transgender athletes who transitioned post-puberty.

But that seems a bit hand wavy to me, because a person who transitioned from male to female post puberty is going to be significantly more likely to be larger, heavier, and stronger than a cis gendered female.

I mean, there's a reason why female-to-male transgender athletes generally can't compete in women's classifications if they're on testosterone, and that's because they'll have an unfair advantage. Which also means that governing bodies are basically OK with effectively barring FtoM transgender athletes from competing at high levels (since it's very unlikely that that person would be competitive in the male categories of most sports).

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

This doesn’t mesh with reality, though. You can’t just declare where the balance of harm lies without actually backing it up. There’s obviously room to find out where the balance is, but you haven’t found it here.

Hm I strongly disagree about reality here, and I am not declaring it, this fact you outline below has been corroborated in this very thread, but if you require further evidence, fine (many people have already done this work for us):
https://law.duke.edu/sports/sex-spor...c-performance/
- Duke puts the difference between elite female to male athletes at 12-14% increased performance.

Just in the single year 2017, Olympic, World, and U.S. Champion Tori Bowie's 100 meters lifetime best of 10.78 was beaten 15,000 times by men and boys. (Yes, that’s the right number of zeros.)

The same is true of Olympic, World, and U.S. Champion Allyson Felix’s 400 meters lifetime best of 49.26. Just in the single year 2017, men and boys around the world outperformed her more than 15,000 times.

This differential isn’t the result of boys and men having a male identity, more resources, better training, or superior discipline. It’s because they have an androgenized body.

To combat your next flow of statements though, it's not entirely one way. In fact, there is evidence to show that estrogenized bodies (i.e. women) have a greater capacity for long term endurance.

https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-hum...urance-sports/

- there are differences in muscle fiber density between men and women, leading to more fast reaction muscle fibers in men.
- Women are better at burning fat stores for residual energy
- Women seem to have a psychological advantage relative to energy expenditure (unwilling to blow it all immediately)

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

For example, based on your position, it’s be natural to assume that you think all people born biological men are better than all people born biological women in any sport where there is a sex divide. Regardless of age, build/other biological factors, or (in the case of trans people) the time/age of transition, you think all people born physically male have a distinct advantage over all people born physically female?

No, I think I showed above that males have specific advantages and females do to. So it may be that specific categories are only needed in specific sports. But it remains clear that (and you admit this yourself later) there are far more athletes within these categories that stand to be harmed by inclusion of an outlying performer than the individual that would benefit arcanely from this sense of inclusion.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It also poses the question of how you then balance trans athletes within their category. If nobody born biologically male can complete against someone born biologically female, that means trans women can’t compete against trans men, so you split that as well. But the numbers of athletes with this split is going to be extremely low, are people supposed to compete in leagues comprising 5-6 other people instead of a few hundred? And at what point have you just made the original situation (trans women in cis men categories and trans men in cis women categories) worse for everyone?

I think the solution is 2 new categories. and if the competition is small in those categories, maybe that encourages more athletes within those categories to train and elevate themselves to that threshold.


May I ask, what is the benefit to the trans individual to participate in the standard gender category? Is it limited their gained inclusion in that category?

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Maybe. For the sake of fairness, though, why not break everything down my body type as well? If a cis girl has a more masculine build or other distinct physical advantages, she probably shouldn’t be allowed to compete, right? Especially if her build is more masculine than a trans girl’s build (which is not uncommon).

Is it fair for smaller, more slender men to have to compete in men’s hockey against men 7 or 8 inches taller and 80 pounds heavier? Tough to say, maybe it isn’t, maybe we should put a stop to it.

Ah you've lost the plot here, IMO. You're questioning the ultimate validity of sports competitions.

[Monahammer]

I also have an enormous moral concern about pre-pubescent gender transitions, so I will refrain from getting into conversations about timing of transition relative to categorizing athletes, as I don't think I could discuss it impartially.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Maybe. For the sake of fairness, though, why not break everything down my body type as well? If a cis girl has a more masculine build or other distinct physical advantages, she probably shouldn’t be allowed to compete, right? Especially if her build is more masculine than a trans girl’s build (which is not uncommon).

Is it fair for smaller, more slender men to have to compete in men’s hockey against men 7 or 8 inches taller and 80 pounds heavier? Tough to say, maybe it isn’t, maybe we should put a stop to it.

I guess it's not really fair that smaller men are at a disadvantage when it comes to competing in men's hockey or football or basketball. So guess what...they don't play past a certain level because we can't all do everything. Their physiology sort of self-polices them out of the running.

Sometimes the hand we are dealt prevents us from achieving our dreams and goals. Shortest guy currently in the NBA is 5'11". If you're 5'10" or under (70% of men on earth), you are never going to play in the NBA.

Maybe if you are MtoF trans you are not going to be able to play in women's leagues. I agree it isn't fair to the trans athlete. I don't know how to make it fair to them.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Ferrets.

As a former ferret owner, I can confirm this risk.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

As a former ferret owner, I can confirm this risk.

Your ferret bit your dick?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Hm I strongly disagree about reality here, and I am not declaring it, this fact you outline below has been corroborated in this very thread, but if you require further evidence, fine (many people have already done this work for us):
https://law.duke.edu/sports/sex-spor...c-performance/
- Duke puts the difference between elite female to male athletes at 12-14% increased performance.



To combat your next flow of statements though, it's not entirely one way. In fact, there is evidence to show that estrogenized bodies (i.e. women) have a greater capacity for long term endurance.

https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-hum...urance-sports/

- there are differences in muscle fiber density between men and women, leading to more fast reaction muscle fibers in men.
- Women are better at burning fat stores for residual energy
- Women seem to have a psychological advantage relative to energy expenditure (unwilling to blow it all immediately)



No, I think I showed above that males have specific advantages and females do to. So it may be that specific categories are only needed in specific sports. But it remains clear that (and you admit this yourself later) there are far more athletes within these categories that stand to be harmed by inclusion of an outlying performer than the individual that would benefit arcanely from this sense of inclusion.



I think the solution is 2 new categories. and if the competition is small in those categories, maybe that encourages more athletes within those categories to train and elevate themselves to that threshold.


May I ask, what is the benefit to the trans individual to participate in the standard gender category? Is it limited their gained inclusion in that category?

None of this proves where the balance of harm lies because you haven’t accounted for the reality of the situation, which includes the number of trans atheletes, the natures of individual sports and whether division is necessary, any harm related to your proposed division, the biological difference between trans women or trans men based on age of transition, etc.

“Men and women each have advantages so you need to separate them” is mostly just lazy for the reasons I listed above and the reasons in the second post you quoted. You’re also suggesting your position is the most moral position, and you’ve provided nothing that supports that (you actually contradict it).

What’s the benefit for trans people to compete in cis gender categories that match their post-transition gender category? Pretty simple I think: trans women are women, and trans men are men, and if all men compete in one category and all women compete in another category regardless of their unique biology, skill set, etc, then that’s where they should naturally compete. If you’re saying we actually need to mix that up because of unique biological factors that may or may not apply or even give an advantage or disadvantage, then why are we not broadening it beyond the exclusion of trans men and women from competing with anyone else?

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Ah you've lost the plot here, IMO. You're questioning the ultimate validity of sports competitions.

Are sports competitions above questioning? Isn’t that what we’re all doing right now, is questioning exactly how “fairness” in sports is determined when it comes to biology? This is the plot. If you hold the position that there is some sort of gospel that can’t be questioned, maybe you’re in the wrong conversation?

[ResAlien]

I’m pretty sure there’s only been like 40 trans athletes, ever, to compete at the NCAA level. Out of the tens of thousands of athletes involved. More energy is put into discussing how to further isolate these members of the community than is put into assisting them in any meaningful manner.

That ostensibly rational and reasonable people have taken this bait and run with it as if it’s a scourge of sport that must be addressed immediately is a testament to how easy it is to confuse the common man with misdirection and bigotry.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Your ferret bit your dick?

No, I’m too quick.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I guess it's not really fair that smaller men are at a disadvantage when it comes to competing in men's hockey or football or basketball. So guess what...they don't play past a certain level because we can't all do everything. Their physiology sort of self-polices them out of the running.

Sometimes the hand we are dealt prevents us from achieving our dreams and goals. Shortest guy currently in the NBA is 5'11". If you're 5'10" or under (70% of men on earth), you are never going to play in the NBA.

Maybe if you are MtoF trans you are not going to be able to play in women's leagues. I agree it isn't fair to the trans athlete. I don't know how to make it fair to them.

So I think you just posted the solution to the problem that doesn’t exist. Let trans athletes compete with the gender they identify with outside of all but elite sports. The vast majority of trans athletes will not get past a certain level because their physiology self polices them out of the running. You don’t need to ban people from leagues.

When it comes to elite sports and the reasoning behind protected classes governing bodies can deal with this from a standpoint of inclusivity. Most have gone to HRT + testosterone threshold but the testosterone threshold also can exclude Cis athletes and for some reason people object when that happens.

Whether someone is better than your daughter because she is genetically gifted with superior female chromosomes or male chromosomes doesn’t matter.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I guess it's not really fair that smaller men are at a disadvantage when it comes to competing in men's hockey or football or basketball. So guess what...they don't play past a certain level because we can't all do everything. Their physiology sort of self-polices them out of the running.

Sometimes the hand we are dealt prevents us from achieving our dreams and goals. Shortest guy currently in the NBA is 5'11". If you're 5'10" or under (70% of men on earth), you are never going to play in the NBA.

Maybe if you are MtoF trans you are not going to be able to play in women's leagues. I agree it isn't fair to the trans athlete. I don't know how to make it fair to them.

If short men are self-sorted out of competition by their physiology and that’s normal and OK, why do we care if weaker/less talented cis women are self-sorted out of competition by their physiology?

Isn’t it fair to say that if you are a cis girl and you can’t compete with a trans girl, then sorry, but sometimes the hand you are dealt prevents you from achieving your dreams. It’s not like every trans female athlete in every sport has completely dominated and taken every record already. Women’s sports are still entirely dominated by cis women. So why should we care about fairness for the women who not-only can’t compete with the best cis women, but can’t compete with even average trans women either?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by GGG

So I think you just posted the solution to the problem that doesn’t exist. Let trans athletes compete with the gender they identify with outside of all but elite sports. The vast majority of trans athletes will not get past a certain level because their physiology self polices them out of the running. You don’t need to ban people from leagues.

When it comes to elite sports and the reasoning behind protected classes governing bodies can deal with this from a standpoint of inclusivity. Most have gone to HRT + testosterone threshold but the testosterone threshold also can exclude Cis athletes and for some reason people object when that happens.

Whether someone is better than your daughter because she is genetically gifted with superior female chromosomes or male chromosomes doesn’t matter.

I don't think we reached the same conclusion with what I said at all. I'm also still skeptical that this is a problem that doesn't exist and I'm particularly skeptical that this isn't something that will become bigger as time goes on. Also, hand waving it away does not help a trans kid plan an athletic future.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GGG

So I think you just posted the solution to the problem that doesn’t exist. Let trans athletes compete with the gender they identify with outside of all but elite sports. The vast majority of trans athletes will not get past a certain level because their physiology self polices them out of the running. You don’t need to ban people from leagues.

When it comes to elite sports and the reasoning behind protected classes governing bodies can deal with this from a standpoint of inclusivity. Most have gone to HRT + testosterone threshold but the testosterone threshold also can exclude Cis athletes and for some reason people object when that happens.

Whether someone is better than your daughter because she is genetically gifted with superior female chromosomes or male chromosomes doesn’t matter.

I think setting medical-based limits in elite sports is reasonable. Which, as you said, will police out some cis gender athletes from their selected categories, but that is just the hand you’re dealt and life is not fair.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

If short men are self-sorted out of competition by their physiology and that’s normal and OK, why do we care if weaker/less talented cis women are self-sorted out of competition by their physiology?

Because men who transitioned to become women have an unfair physiological advantage over CIS women that goes beyond just natural differences between CIS men or CIS women? I guess I don't understand how you don't see the difference. Or maybe I'm being thick here - which I'm open to.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Isn’t it fair to say that if you are a cis girl and you can’t compete with a trans girl, then sorry, but sometimes the hand you are dealt prevents you from achieving your dreams. It’s not like every trans female athlete in every sport has completely dominated and taken every record already. Women’s sports are still entirely dominated by cis women. So why should we care about fairness for the women who not-only can’t compete with the best cis women, but can’t compete with even average trans women either?

Would you say it's fair to say the trans community is growing as acceptance grows?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I don't think we reached the same conclusion with what I said at all. I'm also still skeptical that this is a problem that doesn't exist and I'm particularly skeptical that this isn't something that will become bigger as time goes on. Also, hand waving it away does not help a trans kid plan an athletic future.

I’m not hand waving it away.

I’m specifically saying that you let trans and Cis people compete in the gender they identify with up to the elite level. That isn’t hand waving. That is a specific solution.

People who are concerned that a trans women will take the tier one spot on their kids team and their kid will have to play tier two instead and they will lose out on an athletic scholarship should be ignored. Their kid wasn’t getting a scholarship anyways.

This is what I mean when the right is inventing a problem to get people in line with discriminating against trans people. At the high school and lower level there should be no question that the answer is let kids play where they are comfortable.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Because men who transitioned to become women have an unfair physiological advantage over CIS women that goes beyond just natural differences between CIS men or CIS women? I guess I don't understand how you don't see the difference. Or maybe I'm being thick here - which I'm open to.



Would you say it's fair to say the trans community is growing as acceptance grows?

Some trans women have unfair physiological advantages in some sports, but not all do, and not in all sports. I just find your position similar to the belief that the average male athlete could go into to any high level women’s sport and completely dominate. Do you believe that? If not, why do you believe trans women can?

As far as the community goes, awareness of it is growing as acceptance grows, but it’s a medical condition that effects less than half of a percent of the population, and the number of people who medically transition is significantly lower than even that. As much as there is an element of young people playing with identities trying to figure out who they are, there doesn’t seem to be any evidence that the actual medical condition that precedes any medical transition is becoming more “popular” or whatever. That’s not exactly how biology works, which i think you know. And medically transitioning, from everything I have heard second hand, f######king sucks. So it’s not really in the realm of “let me completely #### my body to place higher in women’s high school badminton.”

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by GGG

I’m not hand waving it away.

I’m specifically saying that you let trans and Cis people compete in the gender they identify with up to the elite level. That isn’t hand waving. That is a specific solution.

People who are concerned that a trans women will take the tier one spot on their kids team and their kid will have to play tier two instead and they will lose out on an athletic scholarship should be ignored. Their kid wasn’t getting a scholarship anyways.

This is what I mean when the right is inventing a problem to get people in line with discriminating against trans people. At the high school and lower level there should be no question that the answer is let kids play where they are comfortable.

What do you mean their kid wasn't getting a scholarship anyways? They would have.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Some trans women have unfair physiological advantages in some sports, but not all do, and not in all sports. I just find your position similar to the belief that the average male athlete could go into to any high level women’s sport and completely dominate. Do you believe that? If not, why do you believe trans women can?

I do believe that, yes. I think an average male athlete with an equal amount of training to an elite female athlete will dominate all the females with very few exceptions.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

As far as the community goes, awareness of it is growing as acceptance grows, but it’s a medical condition that effects less than half of a percent of the population, and the number of people who medically transition is significantly lower than even that. As much as there is an element of young people playing with identities trying to figure out who they are, there doesn’t seem to be any evidence that the actual medical condition that precedes any medical transition is becoming more “popular” or whatever. That’s not exactly how biology works, which i think you know. And medically transitioning, from everything I have heard second hand, f######king sucks. So it’s not really in the realm of “let me completely #### my body to place higher in women’s high school badminton.”

Yeah, I don't think anybody is transitioning to get a leg up in sports.