Enough is enough - Bring up Wolf.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by devo22

I get the frustration with Huberdeau, but I don't see a single skater having that big of a negative impact on team success and I also don't agree with that ratio between him and Sutter, to be honest.

We're a bubble team with goaltending that's close to league-worst in almost every metric - imagine where they'd be with only bang average goaltending this season.

a 1.2 PPG player is putting up 0.6 PPG, essentially halving his normal production

If he's exactly in the middle of that, then he would have contributed 15 more points. If he's on his normal pace over the last 5 seasons then he has 30 more points.

If you tack on either amount with the amount of 1 goal games this team has played, they're in a much better place.

Edit - I actually have less of an issue with Huberdeau than most. I think he is bringing some positives like defensive play and mentoring young players along. He, like others on this team have done their job to contribute to the system and help shelter these goalies, but the goalies are letting them down. So he's not exactly at the top of the list for guys to blame for me. Although, just being in the 50 point neighborhood at this juncture would be much preferrable in a down year for him, but it is what it is.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Yeah I feel like if the team was 1st in the division because of better goaltending the narrative on Huberdeau would be "He needs to produce more but he's bought into the system and is playing better defensively than ever in his career"

Huberdeau’s 2.28 GA/60 (5v5) is third best among regular forwards - only Backlund and Coleman have been better.

It’s also better than every D except Weegar.

Huberdeau could do himself a big favour and switch his number this summer - 10 is cursed with this Franchise.

[devo22]

I'm not going to defend Huberdeau, he obviously needs to produce much, much more ... especially for a player who is going to earn $10.5m going forward.

But again, the team save percentage has fallen from .913% last year (5th in the league) to .887% this year (29th in the league). That's an astonishing collapse, to put it very mildly. Like SuperMatt18 says, judgement on Huberdeau would be much more lenient if the goalies did their job.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Just a collective .900 from the guys in net and people are much less concerned about guys like Huberdeau who are doing their part to contribute to the 200 foot system Sutter is preaching because they're fighting with LA and Vegas for the division.

Saw the Wranglers brought a goalie in yesterday.. hopefully preparing for the possibility of Wolf being needed up on the Flames

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

Just a collective .900 from the guys in net and people are much less concerned about guys like Huberdeau who are doing their part to contribute to the 200 foot system Sutter is preaching because they're fighting with LA and Vegas for the division.

Saw the Wranglers brought a goalie in yesterday.. hopefully preparing for the possibility of Wolf being needed up on the Flames

Probably but only because Markstrom may have to leave the roadtrip if his wife goes into labour.

Not some type of long term strategy

[HighLifeMan]

I really, really struggle to see how Huberdeau can be held more accountable than any other forward on this roster with the exception of Toffoli and Lindholm. Kadri and Mangiapane for example make more than he does this year, play just as much, and I'd argue have been worse as a whole.

Let's not act as if Huberdeau is being deployed in a fashion that is conducive to him putting up huge totals. He's not even averaging 17 minutes a night, and is 8th on the team in five on five ice time among forwards.

Even if his oiSH% were to come in at his average over his past three years (13ish%) he would have been on the ice for 20 more goals already. It's been a tough year no doubt, but many things are factoring into that in which in my opinion are out of his control.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by devo22

I'm not going to defend Huberdeau, he obviously needs to produce much, much more ... especially for a player who is going to earn $10.5m going forward.

But again, the team save percentage has fallen from .913% last year (5th in the league) to .887% this year (29th in the league). That's an astonishing collapse, to put it very mildly. Like SuperMatt18 says, judgement on Huberdeau would be much more lenient if the goalies did their job.

Under Sutter, you’d expect to see Huberdeau’s numbers go down - Gaudreau and Tkachuk were the anomalies last year.

Iggy under Sutter:

67 points in 75 GP
73 in 81 (Rocket Richard, Stanley Cup finalist)
67 in 82 (won division)

Iggy had four more 80+ point seasons with the Flames without Darryl, and the team finished higher than 3rd in the division once, never winning a round.

Kopitar from 2012-14

76 in 82 - won Stanley Cup
42 (in 47 games - lockout) - lost WCF
72 in 82 - Won Stanley Cup

Kopitar has one 90 point season post-Darryl, has never finished higher than 3rd in the division without him, and has won 0 playoff rounds without him.

Not that Huberdeau isn’t struggling more than expected - he is. But a successful season for him in this system is between 60-75 points, no matter how much he’s getting paid.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

At this point it doesn't really matter who does what, as the department as a whole hasn't been getting the job done essentially since the day Sigalet was hired. If he's a good scout them move him into scouting full time and remove him from having any influence on what happens with the goaltenders in the organization.

This is my view as well. The bottom line is a complete lack of success or progress, over a significant number of years (more than a decade).

It ain't working, try something new

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Markstrom didn't come here and drastically change his game. He was and is what he is. Pinning anything on the Goaltending staff for his terrible season is just head hunting in my opinion.

It is fair game to question development given the track record, however, you also have to acknowledge the fact that they are about to graduate one of the top goalie prospects in the league as a 7th round pick, so that says something too.

What are you basing this on? Both Markstrom, and now Vladar, are showing traits that have been a theme here for as far back as I can remember: stay deep in the net, collapse, and try to smother the puck with your body. They do not attack the shooter. They do not utilize their size.

How many goalies do we have to see go through the same (negative) development, before we decide that it is, in fact, systemic?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I just posted this in another thread but it fits here too.

Low Danger:
Shots Against: 538 (2nd)
Goals Against: 24 (7th)
Save Percentage: .955 (23rd)
Ratio to Total Shots Against: 34% (32nd - lowest % of LD shots to total shots)

Medium Danger:
Shots Against: 508 (19th)
Goals Against: 74 (31st)
Save Percentage: .854 (31st)
Ratio to Total Shots: 31.7% (1st - Highest % of MD shots to total shots)

High Danger:
Shots Against: 457 (3rd)
Goals Against: 79 (7th)
Save Percentage: .827 (14th)
Ratio to Total Shots: 28.5% (16th)

The goalies have allowed an abnormal amount of Low Danger and Medium Danger goals against. Overall the save percentage is a little deflated because of how few low danger shots we allow, but overall the team doesn't allow many High Danger or Low Danger shots, but over index a bit on Medium Danger vs other teams.

Unfortunately medium danger is where we have the 31st save percentage in the league.

I feel like Wolf would have better than an .854 save percentage on Medium Danger shots.

The bold is the thing. People keep defending the goalies with the argument that the Flames are giving up ridiculous chances, and they have no chance, due to perfect shots. But here are the numbers - it isn't high danger chances that are sinking them, it's the medium danger stuff. Saves that need to be made.

Again, EVERY goalie lets in bad goals - no one is perfect. But it's a numbers game, and the stats speak for themselves. There are simply TOO MANY soft goals going in. And that will destroy the confidence of the team, every time.

[Enoch Root]

Suggesting Huberdeau is responsible for 30 or 35% of the team's problems is ridiculous - no winger has that much impact. He isn't even on the ice 30% of the time.

After goaltending, the power play is the next biggest problem. ,And yes, Huberdeau has to be accountable for part of that. But a better PP alone, and his points probably go up by about 15.

Part of Huberdeau's problem is that they haven't been able to get a centerman for him. He started the year with Lindholm, when Lindholm was playing terribly, then moved him to Kadri's line, where things really aren't working.

You ask a guy to change his game, to focus more on defense, to stop playing east to west, to play dump and chase, and then you put him with players that don't fit, and you create a PP that might be the worst I have ever seen, as far as structure goes, and then you blame HIM for the team's problems?

Pretty ridiculous, IMO.

[robertsfanatic]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Huberdeau could do himself a big favour and switch his number this summer - 10 is cursed with this Franchise.

in what sense? Roberts was incredible!

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by robertsfanatic

in what sense? Roberts was incredible!

Roberts was forced to retire mid-career and came back with to do many great things for other teams.

Since then, the best Flame to wear 10 is Versteeg.

The leftovers: Hagman, Comeau, Amonte, Ryan, Lowry, Cervenka. Depending on your feelings on Lowry, Derek Ryan is the most productive Flame left.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Under Sutter, you’d expect to see Huberdeau’s numbers go down - Gaudreau and Tkachuk were the anomalies last year.

Not that Huberdeau isn’t struggling more than expected - he is. But a successful season for him in this system is between 60-75 points, no matter how much he’s getting paid.

This is just too easy of a pass for one of the highest scoring players in the league over the last 4-5 seasons. I'll agree that the production drop should be somewhat expected under Sutter, but it's the puck play/turnovers, goal scoring, shot volume and inept work on the PP that is completely alarming.

Not a single fan would be questioning Huberdeau if he was playing up to the potential he has in terms of creating offensively, even if it meant that is now a 70 point season. However, he's 12th on the team in shots (90), barely ahead of Zadorov, and 8th in goals. He will be lucky to hit 15 goals and 55 points at this rate and that is just so far off what this team needs from him.

Last year he was second on the Panthers with 222 shots and third in goals with 30! His Sh% has barely fallen off, so to me, that is a pretty clear indication there is a significant player issue in not getting into areas he needs to and not being assertive enough. All of his counting stats are basically going to be cut in half and you can't blame that all on the coach or system. There's no other thing to call his season but horrific.

[Jason14h]

70 pts is not acceptable for the contract Hubby got no matter how good his defensive metrics are

85 pts is acceptablish in this system

[Paulie Walnuts]

When the system has produced 2 players over 85 points in his coaching career I'm not sure how that's the bar set for Huberdeau.

[442scotty]

Our current team would ruin Wolf this year. Better to wait till the last ten assuming they are out of the playoffs. Gives him a tryout

[bdubbs]

People don't give Wolf enough credit. "Ruin" being tossed around as if it is a sure thing. If he can't handle the workload, he's not ready, but to say it would ruin him is ridiculous.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

When the system has produced 2 players over 85 points in his coaching career I'm not sure how that's the bar set for Huberdeau.

The bar is for him to be a dynamic number 1 player on this team that can drive some offense and a reasonably decent PP, which is every single bit to blame for this seasons failures as the goaltending is.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

70 pts is not acceptable for the contract Hubby got no matter how good his defensive metrics are

85 pts is acceptablish in this system

Based on what?

Huberdeau’s not as good as Iggy. He has more to work with than early-2000s Jarome, but still - for year one?

Everything would’ve had to go right for 85 points, and virtually nothing has (except an admirable commitment to defense).