Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Go Back   Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community > Main Forums > Fire on Ice: The Calgary Flames Forum
Register Forum Rules FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-22-2023, 01:30 PM   #61
Always Earned Never Given
Scoring Winger
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMatt18 View Post
Think it's impossible to play the Jets in Round 1 and Kings in Round 2.

But like your spirit!
Yes it is possible if the Jets are the #1 seed in the west and Flames are 8th (2nd wildcard)

But for round two they would play Dallas or Colorado
Always Earned Never Given is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2023, 01:32 PM   #62
Goriders
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBR View Post
Round 1 - Flames 4, Jets 2
Round 2 - Flames 4, Kings 3
Round 3 - Flames 4, Stars 2
Round 4 - Flames 4, Bruins 1

How's that for optimism?
Round 4 is a bit of a stretch.

But with this team. Whatever I think will happen never happens. So maybe the are winning the cup this year.
Goriders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2023, 01:39 PM   #63
dissentowner
Franchise Player
 
dissentowner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SW Ontario
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by heep223 View Post
Came in for eternal playoff optimism. Leaving disappointed.
Come on, you know damn well certain posters be like...

Spoiler!
dissentowner is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to dissentowner For This Useful Post:
Old 02-22-2023, 01:41 PM   #64
SuperMatt18
Franchise Player
 
SuperMatt18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Calgary, AB
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Always Earned Never Given View Post
Yes it is possible if the Jets are the #1 seed in the west and Flames are 8th (2nd wildcard)

But for round two they would play Dallas or Colorado
That's what I said though.

Impossible for them to play Jets in Round 1 and Kings in Round 2.

Key word there being AND.
SuperMatt18 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to SuperMatt18 For This Useful Post:
Old 02-22-2023, 04:18 PM   #65
bigrangy
Franchise Player
 
bigrangy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Exp:
Default

tl;dr

What is good and reason for optimism is that the goalie problem is fixable. Wolf continues to dominate, Markstrom and Vladar are not this bad and can be expected to be better. I don't know if it will be enough. The defense and offense are both worse than last year but both are good enough to sneak into the playoffs if the goalies can turn it around.

__________________________________

Did some math based on the supremely excellent stoppable goals against thread on HFDevils. Basically, one guy has been watching every single goal against for a long time and since the start of the 2021 season, they've been posting their thoughts on every goal against in that thread. I've summed up the Flames related stats over the two years.


I don't have the stats for the whole league but in general, leaguewide goalies usually give up around 26-28% stoppable goals.

2021-22 (80 gp, I think I missed transcribing two games, not counting playoffs)

Flames Goalies: 192 GA, 56 of them stoppable, 29.1% stoppable goals.
Markstrom 61 gp, 135 GA, 41 stoppable, 30.3 % stoppable, pulled twice
Vladar 21 gp, 57 GA, 15 stoppable, 26.3% stoppable, not pulled

Opposing Goalies: 260 GA, 78 stoppable, 30% stoppable goals, pulled 8 times

2022-23 (57 gp, games through the end of the Flyers loss)

Flames Goalies: 164 GA, 56 of them stoppable. 34.1% stoppable goals.
Markstrom 37 gp, 107 GA, 37 stoppable, 34.6% stoppable, pulled twice
Vladar 21 gp, 54 GA, 19 stoppable, 33.3% stoppable, not pulled

Opposing Goalies: 170 GA, 49 stoppable. 28.8% stoppable, pulled once

Flames goalies as a whole are giving up 17.2% more stoppable goals than last year.

The Flames goalies have given up as many stoppable goals this season as they did all of last year (give or take the two games missed in the data set), and both have seen a decent jump in their stoppable goal %.


Team Defense 2021-22 (80 gp)

136 unstoppable goals given up in 80 games, 1.7 goals per game

Team Defense 2022-23 (57 gp)

108 unstoppable goals given up in 57 games, 1.89 goals per game (11% worse than last year)

The defense is definitely giving up better chances this year. I am not sure if 11% change is not bad, average, or terrible because I have nothing to compare it to. I would think anytime you're getting worse it's definitely not good though.

Team Offense 2021-2022 (80 gp)

183 unstoppable goals for out of 260 total goals. 2.29 unstoppable goals per game.

Team Offense 2022-2023 (57 gp)

121 unstoppable goals for out of 170 total goals, 2.12 unstoppable goals per game


The offense is getting worse this year. It is only 92.6% as effective as last year.

If you take unstoppable goal differential and extrapolate to an 82 game season, 2021-22 paced for a 48.4 goal differential, and 2022-23 is pacing for a 18.86 goal differential, which is still positive. Positive goal differentials almost always make the playoffs.


So this is just the raw stats so far, how does it translate to points gained and lost. I did some figuring and used an assumption that the Flames had a perfect goalie (one that gives up 0 stoppable goals) in net both years, and compared the actual results to the hypothetical. This might be galaxy brain math but I think it's a good estimate.

2021-22 vs perfect goaltending (80 gp):

13 games where a loss stayed a loss
7 games where a tie stayed a tie
41 games where a win stayed a win

11 games where a goalie turned a tie into a loss
3 games where a goalie turned a win into a tie
5 games where a goalie turned a win into a loss (4 markstrom, 1 vladar)

61/80 games would be unchanged with perfect goaltending.

In the 19 other games, a perfect goalie would have earned the team 24 extra points.

24 points over 80 games equals 0.3 points per game left on the table by the goalies.

2022-23 vs perfect goaltending (57 gp):

11 games where a loss stayed a loss
2 games where a tie stayed a tie
24 games where a win stayed a win

10 games where a goalie turned a tie into a loss
4 games where a goalie turned a win into a tie
6 games where a goalie turned a win into a loss (5 markstrom, 1 vladar)

37/57 games would be unchanged with perfect goaltending.

In the 20 other games a perfect goalie would have earned the team an extra 26 points.

26 points over 57 games equals 0.46 points per game left on the table by the goalies.

Give 2022-2023 last year's goaltending and they likely have 8.9 extra points this year at this point.

The Flames had 77 points through 57 games last year and have 63 points through 57 games this year. Add the goaltending difference in and the team would have 71.9 points.

The offensive and defensive deficiencies compared to last year are combining for the other 5.1 points lost. This isn't terrible. That would be 7.3 points over the season which would have taken the team from 111 points last year to somewhere around 104, in a deadlock with the grease for 1st in the div.


The summary: The goalies are 17% worse, the defense is 11% worse, and the offense is 8% worse than last year. This has caused the team to put up only 81.8% of the standings points compared to last year.

I started writing this analysis before figuring out what the results were and I thought it would be positive in at least some areas. Even opposing goalies have been 4% less leaky this year than last. Not a lot is going right.


Ask me any questions, I have the spreadsheets to run more analysis on.
__________________
Oliver Kylington is the greatest and best player in the world
bigrangy is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to bigrangy For This Useful Post:
Old 02-22-2023, 11:11 PM   #66
Robbob
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Exp:
Default

What was that stat they showed, Flames vs playoff teams are 15-9-6. Vs non playoff teams now 12-11-6 or something like that. They come to play against good teams. Napkin math has 14 of their 26 games against playoff teams. Play like they did vs Arizona, against those non playoff teams, and it will be the difference.
Robbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2023, 05:30 AM   #67
Tsawwassen
Franchise Player
 
Tsawwassen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Exp:
Default

The Flames are now only 8 points back of 1st place in the western conf!
__________________
Remember this, TSN stands for Toronto's Sports Network!
MOD EDIT: Removed broken image link.
Tsawwassen is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Tsawwassen For This Useful Post:
Old 02-23-2023, 07:26 AM   #68
Enoch Root
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2012
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigrangy View Post
tl;dr


The summary: The goalies are 17% worse, the defense is 11% worse, and the offense is 8% worse than last year. This has caused the team to put up only 81.8% of the standings points compared to last year.

I started writing this analysis before figuring out what the results were and I thought it would be positive in at least some areas. Even opposing goalies have been 4% less leaky this year than last. Not a lot is going right.


Ask me any questions, I have the spreadsheets to run more analysis on.
Thank you for the analysis.

The overall numbers, compared to last year, feel just about right: the offense is a little worse, the defense is a little worse, and the goaltending is a fair bit worse. Nine points sounds about right too - and that would have them right in the mix for the division lead, which is just about where they should be.
Enoch Root is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2023, 07:55 AM   #69
TheIronMaiden
Franchise Player
 
TheIronMaiden's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: ATCO Field, Section 201
Exp:
Default

I bought tickets to the Wild game. It's going to be intense.
TheIronMaiden is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to TheIronMaiden For This Useful Post:
Old 02-23-2023, 10:02 PM   #70
genetic_phreek
First Line Centre
 
genetic_phreek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: VanCity
Exp:
Default

15-8 gets to 96 points.
.650 points percentage.
5-3
5-3
5-2
genetic_phreek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2023, 10:05 PM   #71
Nelson
First Line Centre
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden View Post
I bought tickets to the Wild game. It's going to be intense.
I think those two games on March 4 and 7 could end up being the season. If the Flames could get all 4 points with at least 1 regulation win, that would be massive.
Nelson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2023, 03:51 PM   #72
Drunk Uncle
Crash and Bang Winger
 
Drunk Uncle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigrangy View Post
tl;dr

What is good and reason for optimism is that the goalie problem is fixable. Wolf continues to dominate, Markstrom and Vladar are not this bad and can be expected to be better. I don't know if it will be enough. The defense and offense are both worse than last year but both are good enough to sneak into the playoffs if the goalies can turn it around.

__________________________________

Did some math based on the supremely excellent stoppable goals against thread on HFDevils. Basically, one guy has been watching every single goal against for a long time and since the start of the 2021 season, they've been posting their thoughts on every goal against in that thread. I've summed up the Flames related stats over the two years.


I don't have the stats for the whole league but in general, leaguewide goalies usually give up around 26-28% stoppable goals.

2021-22 (80 gp, I think I missed transcribing two games, not counting playoffs)

Flames Goalies: 192 GA, 56 of them stoppable, 29.1% stoppable goals.
Markstrom 61 gp, 135 GA, 41 stoppable, 30.3 % stoppable, pulled twice
Vladar 21 gp, 57 GA, 15 stoppable, 26.3% stoppable, not pulled

Opposing Goalies: 260 GA, 78 stoppable, 30% stoppable goals, pulled 8 times

2022-23 (57 gp, games through the end of the Flyers loss)

Flames Goalies: 164 GA, 56 of them stoppable. 34.1% stoppable goals.
Markstrom 37 gp, 107 GA, 37 stoppable, 34.6% stoppable, pulled twice
Vladar 21 gp, 54 GA, 19 stoppable, 33.3% stoppable, not pulled

Opposing Goalies: 170 GA, 49 stoppable. 28.8% stoppable, pulled once

Flames goalies as a whole are giving up 17.2% more stoppable goals than last year.

The Flames goalies have given up as many stoppable goals this season as they did all of last year (give or take the two games missed in the data set), and both have seen a decent jump in their stoppable goal %.


Team Defense 2021-22 (80 gp)

136 unstoppable goals given up in 80 games, 1.7 goals per game

Team Defense 2022-23 (57 gp)

108 unstoppable goals given up in 57 games, 1.89 goals per game (11% worse than last year)

The defense is definitely giving up better chances this year. I am not sure if 11% change is not bad, average, or terrible because I have nothing to compare it to. I would think anytime you're getting worse it's definitely not good though.

Team Offense 2021-2022 (80 gp)

183 unstoppable goals for out of 260 total goals. 2.29 unstoppable goals per game.

Team Offense 2022-2023 (57 gp)

121 unstoppable goals for out of 170 total goals, 2.12 unstoppable goals per game


The offense is getting worse this year. It is only 92.6% as effective as last year.

If you take unstoppable goal differential and extrapolate to an 82 game season, 2021-22 paced for a 48.4 goal differential, and 2022-23 is pacing for a 18.86 goal differential, which is still positive. Positive goal differentials almost always make the playoffs.


So this is just the raw stats so far, how does it translate to points gained and lost. I did some figuring and used an assumption that the Flames had a perfect goalie (one that gives up 0 stoppable goals) in net both years, and compared the actual results to the hypothetical. This might be galaxy brain math but I think it's a good estimate.

2021-22 vs perfect goaltending (80 gp):

13 games where a loss stayed a loss
7 games where a tie stayed a tie
41 games where a win stayed a win

11 games where a goalie turned a tie into a loss
3 games where a goalie turned a win into a tie
5 games where a goalie turned a win into a loss (4 markstrom, 1 vladar)

61/80 games would be unchanged with perfect goaltending.

In the 19 other games, a perfect goalie would have earned the team 24 extra points.

24 points over 80 games equals 0.3 points per game left on the table by the goalies.

2022-23 vs perfect goaltending (57 gp):

11 games where a loss stayed a loss
2 games where a tie stayed a tie
24 games where a win stayed a win

10 games where a goalie turned a tie into a loss
4 games where a goalie turned a win into a tie
6 games where a goalie turned a win into a loss (5 markstrom, 1 vladar)

37/57 games would be unchanged with perfect goaltending.

In the 20 other games a perfect goalie would have earned the team an extra 26 points.

26 points over 57 games equals 0.46 points per game left on the table by the goalies.

Give 2022-2023 last year's goaltending and they likely have 8.9 extra points this year at this point.

The Flames had 77 points through 57 games last year and have 63 points through 57 games this year. Add the goaltending difference in and the team would have 71.9 points.

The offensive and defensive deficiencies compared to last year are combining for the other 5.1 points lost. This isn't terrible. That would be 7.3 points over the season which would have taken the team from 111 points last year to somewhere around 104, in a deadlock with the grease for 1st in the div.


The summary: The goalies are 17% worse, the defense is 11% worse, and the offense is 8% worse than last year. This has caused the team to put up only 81.8% of the standings points compared to last year.

I started writing this analysis before figuring out what the results were and I thought it would be positive in at least some areas. Even opposing goalies have been 4% less leaky this year than last. Not a lot is going right.


Ask me any questions, I have the spreadsheets to run more analysis on.
Thanks! This matches the eye test for me far better than anything I've seen.
Drunk Uncle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2023, 03:57 PM   #73
bigrangy
Franchise Player
 
bigrangy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drunk Uncle View Post
Thanks! This matches the eye test for me far better than anything I've seen.
That thread is where I take all my goalie thoughts. At the end of the day, a goalie is expected to save everything they can, and some of what they can’t. It’s super hard to quantify the second part but the thread provides an excellent summary of the other part. I wish they had it a little better formatted for doing searches like this but it’s still a great resource.
__________________
Oliver Kylington is the greatest and best player in the world
bigrangy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2023, 02:34 PM   #74
dissentowner
Franchise Player
 
dissentowner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SW Ontario
Exp:
Default

Well, need a big win against Boston first and then go from there. Not giving up yet.
dissentowner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2023, 02:43 PM   #75
All In Good Time
First Line Centre
 
All In Good Time's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: I'm somewhere where I don't know where I am
Exp:
Default

I mentioned it an another thread
Minnesota and Nashville will fall away
we will be the second wild card team and draw Colorado in the first round
waste of 8 days
All In Good Time is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2023, 02:44 PM   #76
TrentCrimmIndependent
Franchise Player
 
TrentCrimmIndependent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Richmond upon Thames, London
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by genetic_phreek View Post
15-8 gets to 96 points.
.650 points percentage.
5-3
5-3
5-2
It just feels like a far cry from their current level of execution

Need the players to care and invest more than they are at the moment

To a man, they appear to have low expectations/belief in the outcomes of games

They weren't even mad last night post-game. Some might think that's good, but I don't think it is
TrentCrimmIndependent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2023, 02:46 PM   #77
Burning Beard
#1 Goaltender
 
Burning Beard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent View Post
It just feels like a far cry from their current level of execution

Need the players to care and invest more than they are at the moment

To a man, they appear to have low expectations/belief in the outcomes of games
Which happens when the first three pucks to the net beat the goalie
Burning Beard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2023, 02:47 PM   #78
TrentCrimmIndependent
Franchise Player
 
TrentCrimmIndependent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Richmond upon Thames, London
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burning Beard View Post
Which happens when the first three pucks to the net beat the goalie
I agree! Which is why I think they need to keep markstrom sidelined the rest of the way
TrentCrimmIndependent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2023, 02:48 PM   #79
Burning Beard
#1 Goaltender
 
Burning Beard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent View Post
I agree! Which is why I think they need to keep markstrom sidelined the rest of the way
Agreed. Heck put Looch in there.
Burning Beard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2023, 03:32 PM   #80
Manhattanboy
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2004
Exp:
Default

If by some miracle they win 3 in a row this week at home maybe there’s hope.
Manhattanboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:04 AM.

Calgary Flames
2024-25




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021 | See Our Privacy Policy