Shoplifter awarded $12,000 in damages

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Kev

Now I want you guys to answer my questions:

If I break into your house looking to steal something, and in the process, end up falling through the window and breaking my jaw and chipping a tooth and can't chew properly anymore, would you be alright with it if I sued you personally for damages?

Depends on whether you were THROWN out the window or you fell out because of your own clumsiness. If I threw you out... the answer is yes. If the latter... the answer is no.

Originally Posted by Kev

How about if you caught me with your TV in my hands, and you tackled me, and we fell down your stairs, and the same result, I broke my jaw, chipped my tooth, and now I couldn't enjoy my Timmy's breakfast sandwiches anymore, would you appreciate the fact that I am now suing you for as much money as I possibly can get?

I guess that would be up to the courts to determine if you were injured ACCIDENTALLY during the process of apprehension or I DELIBERATELY intended to injure you.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

This is irrelevant.

Breaking into a home is completely different from getting beat up by a security guard and would be treated as such by the justice system.

Actually its not irrelevant. The home owner has no more right to deliberately injure a thief than the security guard does.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Kev

Now I want you guys to answer my questions:

If I break into your house looking to steal something, and in the process, end up falling through the window and breaking my jaw and chipping a tooth and can't chew properly anymore, would you be alright with it if I sued you personally for damages?

Nope, everything that happened was due to his own actions. If my insurance wouldn't fix the damage I'd be suing him for repairs.

Originally Posted by Kev

How about if you caught me with your TV in my hands, and you tackled me, and we fell down your stairs, and the same result, I broke my jaw, chipped my tooth, and now I couldn't enjoy my Timmy's breakfast sandwiches anymore, would you appreciate the fact that I am now suing you for as much money as I possibly can get?

Nope. I am not attempting to inflict punishment. I may really, really want to push you down the stairs, but if I did I would be guilty of vigilante justice.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Actually its not irrelevant. The home owner has no more rights to deliberately injure a thief than the security guard does.

Those questions weren't about anyone getting deliberately hurt.

[tete]

Originally Posted by Kev

So for you two human rights activists (gottabekd and VanCity). If I break into your house looking to steal something, and in the process, end up falling through the window and breaking my jaw and chipping a tooth and can't chew properly anymore, would you be alright with it if I sued you personally for damages?

Under the Occupier's Liability Act, the occupant does not owe a duty of care to a trespasser on the occupier's premesis (Sec. 12(1)) If the trespasser is injured due to reckless and willful conduct of the occupant, yes, then the trespasser can sue. But injuring youself by breaking in? Unlikely that it'd go through.

[Kev]

I'm sorry for those that disagree, but criminals in the process of comitting a crime are given more rights than they deserve. If I fight a bull, and the bull mauls me, can I sue the owners of the Bull? The more this is allowed to happen, the more it will happen in the future. Here's some cases you might not have already seen.

BURGLAR SUES HOMEOWNER
Terrence Dickson of Bristol, PA finished burglarizing a house and left through the garage. The door to the house locked behind him and the automatic door opener in the garage wasn’t working so he was stuck. The family was on vacation and Dickson was trapped in the garage for 8 days. He lived on dog food and Pepsi (and you thought it wasn’t good for you!). When he got out, he sued the homeowner for mental anguish. A jury awarded him $500,000


Mugger sues Cab company
A San Francisco cab driver who chased a mugger with his cab and pinned him against the wall with the bumper, fracturing his leg, was sued by the mugger, who won $24,595. The award was later overturned, but the cab company had to spend $68,000 defending the case.

Burglar sues School
Another man who fell through a skylight while burglarizing a building in Redding, California, was awarded $250,000 in damages.

Foiled Burglar Sues Store Employees for 'Emotional Distress'
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,198988,00.html

November 21 -- Burglar sues for compensation. In Australia, "[a] man who broke into a house and attacked the home owner when he was discovered has launched a civil action against his victim for compensation." Shane Colburn says he is still suffering "physically and emotionally" from the aftermath of the 1997 incident, in which he scuffled with Peter Vucetic and Giavanna Grah and was attacked by the couple's dogs. ("The thief who sued his victim", Daily Telegraph (NSW, Australia), Nov. 17).

These are just a few I found in a couple of minutes, but I'm not saying the people shouldn't be punished, but the criminals shouldn't be able to be awarded anything. But where do you draw the line? The more you allow, the weaker that line is going to get, and soon you will have burglars suing all the time.

I know personally, if I find a guy in my house, and I feel that my children are in danger I will beat his ass. If you guys disagree, stay out of my house.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Kev

I know personally, if I find a guy in my house, and I feel that my children are in danger I will beat his ass. If you guys disagree, stay out of my house.

You appear to be arguing with yourself. I don't think anyone has said you can't defend yourself or your children in your own house. It's only common sense.

The story and the discussion is about security guards and store managers right to whip some guy's ass because he stole some razorblades in broad daylight in a grocery store.

[VanCity Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Kev

Are you two from BC by chance?

Born in Texas, Grew up in Calgary until i left for university. So does that make my opinions on vigilante justice more valid than yours now? or does where you're from really not matter?

I'm a believer in peoples rights, and a security guard does not have the right to determine guilt or give punishment. And these were injuries inflicted because the guards were restraining the guy, which i don't think they are allowed to do.

[VanCity Cowboy]

Burglary is obviously not the same as shoplifting. Especially not when they are breaking into a home.
Stop confusing the issue.
The guards are hired, the shoplifter wasn't trespassing, the guards most likely couldn't say they were in danger.

Your burglary scenarios don't compare very well. More like, if a guy at your garage sale grabbed a clock radio and didn't pay for it. If you chased and tackled him down some stairs, that could be considered reckless.

[VanCity Cowboy]

Dont forget the punches and kicks. If cops can't do it, why should you?

[Bobblehead]

You really should have done more research. snopes

The mugger case, as you said, was overturned.

The Fox News story has the guy suing, but he hasn't won anything and it is questionable that he will.

The school one is listed all over but no verification can be found, none list a source. link

And the case in Australia is questionable at best since criminals in the act are barred from claiming damages.

It is relevant to note the provisions of the Victims Support and Rehabilitation Act 1996 which provide that a person is not eligible to receive statutory compensation in respect of an act of violence if it occurred while the person was engaged in behaviour constituting an offence—section 24(3).

link

So you found a bunch of urban myths.

[gottabekd]

Originally Posted by Kev

I know personally, if I find a guy in my house, and I feel that my children are in danger I will beat his ass. If you guys disagree, stay out of my house.

I would defend my family too. But it is a bit different from a shoplifting case.

It's tricky. I've worked in retail, and was once asked by the security guard to help him apprehend some shoplifters after they left the store. I came with him, he approached them, there was no struggle, they just accepted the fact that they were caught. If there was a struggle, I'm not sure what I would do. I personally don't want to beat down some punk kids for stealing some fuel injector cleaner. But what then, if they put up a fight, let them run away? The store needs some rights to defend itself, but I don't know where to draw the line. Other times, when the security guard wasn't around, we just had to let shoplifters run away. As a law abiding person, that kind of thing is annoying.

And that said, at least $12,000 isn't some insane amount like $500,000.

[Kev]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

You appear to be arguing with yourself. I don't think anyone has said you can't defend yourself or your children in your own house. It's only common sense.

The story and the discussion is about security guards and store managers right to whip some guy's ass because he stole some razorblades in broad daylight in a grocery store.

I'm not sure how I am arguing with myself? My point was the same as a few others on here, that a person in the process of committing a crime shouldn't be allowed to receive compensation for injuries they sustain during the act of the crime. Sure, if the security and management went beyond the point that was legal, then yes maybe they should be charged.

You guys make the shoplifter sound like the victim, it's like defending Jarkko Ruttuu beause he's been punched in the head after slu footing a guy after the whistle.

We're talking about private property, and a person committing a crime, a scenario they created, during which they got hurt, and recieved compensation. Is it any different on my property, or a store's, somebody owns it.

[Kev]

Originally Posted by VanCity Cowboy

Born in Texas, Grew up in Calgary until i left for university. So does that make my opinions on vigilante justice more valid than yours now? or does where you're from really not matter?

Yes, if you were from Vancouver, I would have just written off your comments as the drunken ramblings of a tree hugging, 60's lovin' Canucks fan.

[VanCity Cowboy]

we're also talking about the laws which protect the wrongly accused. Erring on the side of caution means the innocent are protected, while the guilty are given the same protection until proven otherwise. That's why we don't give "superstore security" the right to detain people using extreme force. The security guards broke the law, in our society we don't beat people as a punishment, especially not for something like shoplifting.

[Kev]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

You really should have done more research.
So you found a bunch of urban myths.

So which ones were urban myths?

And the point was to show that it is happening more and more, and the cases will continue to grow if the criminals think they can benefit from doing something they shouldn't be doing in the first place.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by VanCity Cowboy

Dont forget the punches and kicks. If cops can't do it, why should you?

don't forget that when the man was stopped he resisted and 'struggled'. now, what exactly this 'struggle' entails in this case, i dunno; but it ended up with them falling down some stairs. if you push a cop down some stairs you bet your a$$ that they will hurt you (most likely with a nightstick rather than fists) and will get away with it.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Kev

So which ones were urban myths?

And the point was to show that it is happening more and more, and the cases will continue to grow if the criminals think they can benefit from doing something they shouldn't be doing in the first place.

A lot the reason these cases happen in the states is because they have a jury. Where as Canada typically has a judge for such a case. So it is easier to appeal to jurors than a judge. But what you don't hear about is that almost always the case is appealed and it goes to a higher court where the amount that is awarded is lowered considerably or even the decision over turned. But that part isn't as interesting and doesn't make it to the headlines.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Kev

I'm not sure how I am arguing with myself? My point was the same as a few others on here, that a person in the process of committing a crime shouldn't be allowed to receive compensation for injuries they sustain during the act of the crime. Sure, if the security and management went beyond the point that was legal, then yes maybe they should be charged.

If they were kicking and punching the guy, don't you think they went beyond what was legal?

Originally Posted by Kev

You guys make the shoplifter sound like the victim, it's like defending Jarkko Ruttuu beause he's been punched in the head after slu footing a guy after the whistle.

Well, if they kicked his ass, he was the victim, even if he was shoplifting. You can bring up all the crazy scenarios (hockey games, fighting bulls), but they are irrelevant. The guy was beat up by a security guard and store manager for stealing razor blades.

Let's change the crime just a little bit and have someone speeding in the parking lot outside the mall. They are breaking the law so do you think it's okay if that security guard smashes out a couple headlights, or punches the driver in the face after the guy parks his car? He was committing a crime, so anything that happens to him is his own fault?

Originally Posted by Kev

We're talking about private property, and a person committing a crime, a scenario they created, during which they got hurt, and recieved compensation. Is it any different on my property, or a store's, somebody owns it.

Yes, it is different. It's not your property, it's a public place and he is shoplifting, not threatening anybody or assaulting anybody.

[Flames09]

Two wrongs don't make a right I don't think the guy should have been awarded money but some sort of other punishment for the security guards like community service.