[Signing] Coyotes sign Valimaki to 1 year contract extension

[Jiri Hrdina]

The fact that he was a 1st round pick has little relevance based on the player he is now. His value is no longer that of a 1st round pick. Far lower than that.
So the problem is being over-stated.

Also any inclusion of Milano on these lists of regrets is kinda hilarious. Guy is an adequate offensive player who can product somewhat when playing with good players, but does nothing else.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I think we can go back to the training camp and look at the fact that every young/apparent bubble player had a bad camp - and somehow Mackey makes the team but Valimaki and Gilbert get put on waivers/sent down, and both of those players are significantly better than Mackey - and I’d argue Stone as well. Maybe it’s a problem with how Sutter/Treliving put together their training camp?

Flames screwed up with Valimaki and lost a recent(ish) 1st round pick for nothing, and kept a player who doesn’t appear to be an NHL’er.

Chalk this one up to a player and coach not getting along, and move on - but it still sucks.

Amazing to me how people want to grind out the most minor of decisions.

He was bad in the NHL in 21/22, he was terrible in the AHL in 21/22 and he was terrible in camp this year. Add in the higher contract and the Flames wanting to acrue space for the deadline and it was the right call at the time.

Navel gazing this one is just looking to be upset about things.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Amazing to me how people want to grind out the most minor of decisions.

He was bad in the NHL in 21/22, he was terrible in the AHL in 21/22 and he was terrible in camp this year. Add in the higher contract and the Flames wanting to acrue space for the deadline and it was the right call at the time.

Navel gazing this one is just looking to be upset about things.

I don’t think that’s fair. It’s worth questioning what’s going on with Flames scouting, development, and culture when 3/6 of your most recent first round draft picks have all either failed internally and found success externally or chosen to move on from the organization.

If these players outright busted, fine - but they didn’t. All three have left and found more success.

Culture fit problems? Coach/player relationship problems? Scouting failure? 1st round picks are so critical to success that it seems silly to just say “oh they needed a fresh start” - why did they need it? Is there something in the water?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I don’t think that’s fair. It’s worth questioning what’s going on with Flames scouting, development, and culture when 3/6 of your most recent first round draft picks have all either failed internally and found success externally or chosen to move on from the organization.

If these players outright busted, fine - but they didn’t. All three have left and found more success.

You are looking for a pattern that doesn't exist.
- Juuso's development was de-railed by injuries which severely changed his mobility and skating. He's never been the same player. If he's an NHLer, he's likely a marginal one. 4 point night aside
- Sam is probably the one that could be evaluated as something going wrong
- Tkachuk was a great pick that turned into an elite player. He exercised his rights as a pending free agent to move on to somewhere he preferred to live.

That's it. There's not a greater story here.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I don’t think that’s fair. It’s worth questioning what’s going on with Flames scouting, development, and culture when 3/6 of your most recent first round draft picks have all either failed internally and found success externally or chosen to move on from the organization.

If these players outright busted, fine - but they didn’t. All three have left and found more success.

I don’t think anyone cared about Gilbert, and you said at the end of training camp that Valimaki was out 8th D and broken, that it wasn’t the staff’s fault he was broken, and that he needed a mercy trade.

Why is Valimaki their fault now?

[redmile04]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah lets make sure we walk out 30 years of team history when assessing whether or not letting Juuso Valimaki go on waivers was the right call.

Jesus ...

Because thats the only player I mentioned right Bingo, not the other studs that we let walk away and had major success elsewhere and won cups.

Valimaki on waivers was the right call? Letting a serviceable former first round pick was the right call? Ok.. keep defending them, theres homers and then theres you. You are probably happy with the last 30 years.

You would say the same about Kylington if he was claimed and had the season he had with us last year.

Jesus...

[redmile04]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I don’t think that’s fair. It’s worth questioning what’s going on with Flames scouting, development, and culture when 3/6 of your most recent first round draft picks have all either failed internally and found success externally or chosen to move on from the organization.

Exactly its not just the one off

[redmile04]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Guy is an adequate offensive player

something we lack and something we need

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by redmile04

Valimaki on waivers was the right call? Letting a serviceable former first round pick was the right call?

Honest question: did you not follow Valimaki the last year and not watch his preseason, or are you pretending he was completely different than how he was in reality?

He was not serviceable, he sucked. Badly. Even in the AHL.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

You are looking for a pattern that doesn't exist.
- Juuso's development was de-railed by injuries which severely changed his mobility and skating. He's never been the same player. If he's an NHLer, he's likely a marginal one. 4 point night aside
- Sam is probably the one that could be evaluated as something going wrong
- Tkachuk was a great pick that turned into an elite player. He exercised his rights as a pending free agent to move on to somewhere he preferred to live.

That's it. There's not a greater story here.

Alright, let's look at this

- Juuso's development was de-railed by injuries and then magically gets out of Calgary and begins putting up promising numbers and has now strung together 50+ games of NHL hockey at a much better level than the choices we put ahead of him. It's a clear failure to assess player skill by the organization at some level.

- Sam got screwed over by moronic coaching hires, and I'd say that's behind us except we now have a head coach that in his time here has seen players leave the organization with no love lost for him (Tkachuk), and see the point about Juuso - he and Sutter never seemed to click. That coach has also brought a 115 point player down to 50'ish. Maybe my excitement regarding Sutter's initial hire was completely misplaced.

- Tkachuk was a great pick, and we signed him to one of the worst contracts imaginable when we signed him after his ELC. He should have been signed for 6-8 years (which the player has openly stated he wanted), but Treliving wouldn't pay the price to move out Frolik who had openly asked for a trade and would get traded in the coming season...years later we then spend a 1st to dump Monahan just to sign an old Kadri - that just doesn't seem smart. The absolute priority in summer of 2019 should have been to give Matthew Tkachuk the biggest contract in Calgary Flames history, we didn't - mistake.

“During this process this summer, I kind of thought back to three years prior when I was going through my contract situation then,” said Tkachuk. “Throughout the whole process after my entry-level, I was just like ‘No, [I want to sign for] six, seven, eight years. What are we doing?’ And nothing really came from it.”

Three screw ups.

[TheScorpion]

Going to continue to ignore the ramifications of the Flames' different management decisions (truly a boring conversation on all levels) and focus on how well Juuso is playing.

Led AZ with 26:10 in yesterday's 1–0 shootout win over Tampa Bay. Despite the Yotes being outshot 47-26, Juuso posted the best on-ice expected goals percentage among defencemen on the team while playing the hardest minutes. An outstanding shutdown performance.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by redmile04

Every team hasn't had 0 cups in 30 years, and 1 WCF appearance in those 30 plus years.

This also applies to:

BUF
TOR
FLA
CBJ
WPG
MIN
NAS
ARI

NYI - 2 CFs ditto
EDM ditto, though last year should barely count
VAN - twice to finals, but one was 29 years ago
OTT - 2 CFs and 1 finals. Ditto MTL plus a cup 30 years ago.

It sucks to be among the bottom 3rd of the league, especially when 4 of those teams have only been around for ~25 years, but it's not like we're some enigma. It's also worth noting that the other CAD teams are all within spitting distance of that criteria.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I don’t think that’s fair. It’s worth questioning what’s going on with Flames scouting, development, and culture when 3/6 of your most recent first round draft picks have all either failed internally and found success externally or chosen to move on from the organization.

If these players outright busted, fine - but they didn’t. All three have left and found more success.

Culture fit problems? Coach/player relationship problems? Scouting failure? 1st round picks are so critical to success that it seems silly to just say “oh they needed a fresh start” - why did they need it? Is there something in the water?

I'm talking Valimaki ... this is a Valimaki topic.

Now you want to expand it? Ok that's fine.

All three ... Bennett, Tkachuk and Valimaki were taken where they were projected.

Bennett was given many chances with many coaches.
Valimaki was very hurt twice, and nuked his development.
Tkachuk chose to play in Florida.

Not sure there's any fire here ... just smoke.

[GioforPM]

Name any team and I can give a pretty impressive list of "ones that got away". And for the Flames Jusso Valimaki isn't anywhere near the players on those lists.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by redmile04

Because thats the only player I mentioned right Bingo, not the other studs that we let walk away and had major success elsewhere and won cups.

Valimaki on waivers was the right call? Letting a serviceable former first round pick was the right call? Ok.. keep defending them, theres homers and then theres you. You are probably happy with the last 30 years.

You would say the same about Kylington if he was claimed and had the season he had with us last year.

Jesus...

Oh great ... lets roll out the homer tag ... in fact suggest I'm more than a homer.

I love the wallow in dread group that feel it necessary to escalate every discussion into a complete history and then insult or label those that won't join them in jumping off the nearest bridge.

Pound sand

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by redmile04

Because thats the only player I mentioned right Bingo, not the other studs that we let walk away and had major success elsewhere and won cups.

Valimaki on waivers was the right call? Letting a serviceable former first round pick was the right call? Ok.. keep defending them, theres homers and then theres you. You are probably happy with the last 30 years.

You would say the same about Kylington if he was claimed and had the season he had with us last year.

Jesus...

[SuperMatt18]

The question shouldn't be why the Flames waived Valimaki - that was a reasonable decision at that time.

The question is what the hell happened in 20-21, 21-22 that Valimaki's confidence and development completely stalled out in the Flames organization.

During COVID people were salivating over him with the amazing stats he had in the SM-Liiga. Looked like a sure fire top 4 d-man and PP quarterback.

Then he got to Calgary and he wasn't great or bad in the 20-21 season. His underlying stats were fine in a sheltered role (53.7% xGF) playing with Stone and Nesterov mostly.

But then under Sutter it was a complete failure in 21-22, and he looked just broken when he went back to Stockton, and looked bad in camp this season (which was unfortunate because a spot was open with Kylington gone).

Those are the questions to ask. And IMO it is quite similar to Bennett. Somehow the expectations and handling of these two prospects by the Flames org just shattered their confidence and they needed a fresh start to take off.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

The question shouldn't be why the Flames waived Valimaki - that was a reasonable decision at that time.

The question is what the hell happened in 20-21, 21-22 that Valimaki's confidence and development completely stalled out in the Flames organization.

During the lock out people were salivating over him with the amazing stats he had in the SM-Liiga. Looked like a sure fire top 4 d-man and PP quarterback.

Then he got to Calgary and he wasn't great or bad in the 20-21 season. His underlying stats were fine in a sheltered role (53.7% xGF) playing with Stone and Nesterov mostly.

But then under Sutter it was a complete failure in 21-22, and he looked just broken when he went back to Stockton.

Those are the questions to ask.

But you're missing all those mistakes made in the early 90s! Where is that in your analysis!?

[GioforPM]

It may be as sinple as his injury and a failure on his part (and maybe the Flames too) to rehab it properly, and only now is he back in shape.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It may be as sinple as his injury and a failure on his part (and maybe the Flames too) to rehab it properly, and only now is he back in shape.

That was my initial thought too - but he looked fine post injury in the SM-Liga and for most of that 20-21 season in Calgary.

Maybe he just was out of shape in 21-22 and clearly never was a fit with Sutter.

Kylington really taking off hurt him too as that really blocked his opportunities.