[Barn Burner] Boomer: "You were wrong"

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Which Premium assets in their prime have the Flames sold in the last 15 years, can you confirm with me?

Dougie Hamilton

Matthew Tkachuk

That's off the top of my head without even trying too hard. I'm sure there are other examples.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

The Flames are not going to do it, so just put that up front. But I think you would get a bigger haul by giving a team two years at a real good contract. Kind of the reason the Coyotes are trading Chychrun now. Any of those guys, outside Kylington, that you trade for the playoff runs should get you a bigger package of prospects and picks. You eat some salary and you probably even get more.

There is a path for the Flames that involves a rebuild in the next 3 weeks. Lindholm alone should get a better package than Horvat got. If the Flames decided to do it and they traded 3 of them (say Lindholm, Toffoli and Tanev) it is conceivable that they get

3 first round picks in 2023
3 top prospects somewhere between D+1 to D+3
3 current NHLers under the age of 25.

The real question the Flames should be asking in my opinion is whether they think this group can compete for a Cup in the next 2 years. If the answer to that is no they really should try to maximize the value of some of those players before they either age out of being good NHLers or become too expensive to keep.

You really think you can get all that for Lindholm, Tanev, and Toffoli. Doubt it. Add those players to the market and it becomes even more of a buyers market than it is right now.

Seems likely the Rangers didn’t like the ask on Kane, or Meier. So, moving on. You probably still get a haul for Lindholm as he likely becomes the top C on the market but the others, considering Kane, Meier, Boeser, Chychrun, Karlson, Edmonson, Gravikov, etc etc etc are already out there, you’re likely not getting the type of return you seem to think exists.

It’s not the time for the Flames to sell, nor will they.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Dougie Hamilton

Matthew Tkachuk

That's off the top of my head without even trying too hard. I'm sure there are other examples.

Real examples please, PREMIUM assets traded for future assets.

Tkachuk was leaving either way (his contract was up), so that's a borderline sell. Sadly the majority of CP already hates this and claims Huberdeau is damaged goods and we lost the trade.
The Hamilton Trade ended up being a good one, but it wasn't to "re-build" it was simply a hockey trade 2 for 2 (and a great one at that) though Fox screwing us over at the time of still stings.

I'm talking trades where we sold off a premium asset and acquired A+ prospects and picks in return.

This past off season was the best time for a Flames re-build, but instead they extended Sutter in hopes of extending a window that didnt exist.
Rather than look at trading Tkachuk for prospects and picks they traded him to Florida for 2 guys who Brad figured would help the Flames get back into the playoffs again.
We used the cap space on a 32 year old Kadri and picked up Rooney for reasons unknown.

Instead the Flames should have cut their loses, made moves at the draft to secure higher picks and looked at moving other premium assets like Lindholm and Hanifin which both could have got you a kings ransom for. Went into this season with a younger team, giving our prospects a better shot along with some of the acquisitions in theory.

Now look where we are, we've got a team who cant string wins together.
A "STAR" player in Huberdeau (about to turn into our highest paid forward) who clearly doesn't jive with our head coach, whos signed for 2 more years after this.
Struggling Weegar, a completely fragile goalie who's basically tanked his career in less than a year.

Likely not going to make the playoffs, let alone take a deep run and yet we want to burn even more assets on guys like Schenn???
Why exactly? Because the Flames seemingly think they can extend a window that doesn't exist.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by TOfan

You really think you can get all that for Lindholm, Tanev, and Toffoli. Doubt it. Add those players to the market and it becomes even more of a buyers market than it is right now.

Seems likely the Rangers didn’t like the ask on Kane, or Meier. So, moving on. You probably still get a haul for Lindholm as he likely becomes the top C on the market but the others, considering Kane, Meier, Boeser, Chychrun, Karlson, Edmonson, Gravikov, etc etc etc are already out there, you’re likely not getting the type of return you seem to think exists.

It’s not the time for the Flames to sell, nor will they.

Tanev is a better, more affordable D option than any of those dmen with the exception of Chychrun.

The fact is if you are not going to win a Stanley cup and all your top players are over 30 it is probably a decent time to sell.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Which Premium assets in their prime have the Flames sold in the last 15 years, can you confirm for me?

Go ahead and list all the premium assets the last decade of Stanley Cup winners sold for high picks and good prospects in the years prior to their first cup win.

Do you know? Or is your view entirely limited to what the Flames have done without comparing it to actual successful teams?

Give us examples of 3 Stanley Cup winners you want to emulate and the differences between the types of players they’ve traded and the types of players we’ve traded. Go ahead. Because I already said your narrow definition is meaningless, so why should I care to give examples that support it?

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Tanev is a better, more affordable D option than any of those dmen with the exception of Chychrun.

The fact is if you are not going to win a Stanley cup and all your top players are over 30 it is probably a decent time to sell.

Tanev’s injury prone. Came off a significant shoulder issue at the end of last season and has missed time this year with an ‘upper body injury’. Put yourself in the shoes of team X’s shoes. You giving up a first + for Tanev? Really? There will be other options.

It’s a market. There are only so many spots available on the dance card and the spots are already starting to get taken.

Short of a player requesting a trade none of the players you mentioned are getting traded. And even if they do, I doubt very much it happens before the deadline.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Tanev’s injury prone. Came off a significant shoulder issue at the end of last season and has missed time this year with an ‘upper body injury’. Put yourself in the shoes of team X’s shoes. You giving up a first + for Tanev? Really? There will be other options.

It’s a market. There are only so many spots available on the dance card and the spots are already starting to get taken.

Short of a player requesting a trade none of the players you mentioned are getting traded. And even if they do, I doubt very much it happens before the deadline.

I agree with you, they are not getting traded. The Flames are going for the Cup this year. If anything they will add at the deadline.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

I agree with you, they are not getting traded. The Flames are going for the Cup this year. If anything they will add at the deadline.

You’re laying it on a little thick.

The Flames aren’t as dumb as you like to believe.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Go ahead and list all the premium assets the last decade of Stanley Cup winners sold for high picks and good prospects in the years prior to their first cup win.

Do you know? Or is your view entirely limited to what the Flames have done without comparing it to actual successful teams?

Give us examples of 3 Stanley Cup winners you want to emulate and the differences between the types of players they’ve traded and the types of players we’ve traded. Go ahead. Because I already said your narrow definition is meaningless, so why should I care to give examples that support it?

You still cant provide any examples of your hot take which is comical.

Why do you keep talking as if the Flames are on the brink of winning a cup here? You are so delusional in the thought that a rebuild means you have to win the cup right away.

You dont, you're not going to.
But your surely attempting to do more than just sitting there hoping you can win something by keeping a mediocre core and adding to it with depth plugs.

Here's some trades for you:

Preds traded away prime Erat for Filip Forsberg, getting younger and better just 2 years later.

Stars traded away Loui Eriksson in his prime for Seguin

Buffalo traded away a prime O'Reilly for a 1st, Tage Thompson and more

Flyers traded away prime Richards & Carter for Simmonds, Schenn and Voracek who all turned into great NHL forwards.

Islanders traded Griffin Reinhart to Edmonton for what now is Barzal

Rangers traded Brassard for a younger less established Zibanajad

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Go ahead and list all the premium assets the last decade of Stanley Cup winners sold for high picks and good prospects in the years prior to their first cup win.

Do you know? Or is your view entirely limited to what the Flames have done without comparing it to actual successful teams?

Give us examples of 3 Stanley Cup winners you want to emulate and the differences between the types of players they’ve traded and the types of players we’ve traded. Go ahead. Because I already said your narrow definition is meaningless, so why should I care to give examples that support it?

STL traded PREMIUM assets Patrick Berglund and Tage Thompson for a little known 27 yo prospect named Ryan O'Reilly.

and that happened just one year after they traded PREMIUM asset Jori Lehtera for a little known 26 yo prospect named Brayden Schenn.



Another great example is of course PHI when they recognized they were going nowhere fast with their PREMIUM assets Mike Richards and Jeff Carter. They acquired four fantastic young players (Voracek, Couturier, Simmonds, Schenn) and have lived off the dividends ever since, while the team that ended up with the booze brothers has lamented their short-sightedness ever since.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Royle9

You still cant provide any examples of your hot take which is comical.

Why do you keep talking as if the Flames are on the brink of winning a cup here? You are so delusional in the thought that a rebuild means you have to win the cup right away.

You dont, you're not going to.
But your surely attempting to do more than just sitting there hoping you can win something by keeping a mediocre core and adding to it with depth plugs.

Here's some trades for you:

Preds traded away prime Erat for Filip Forsberg, getting younger and better just 2 years later.

Stars traded away Loui Eriksson in his prime for Seguin

Buffalo traded away a prime O'Reilly for a 1st, Tage Thompson and more

Flyers traded away prime Richards & Carter for Simmonds, Schenn and Voracek who all turned into great NHL forwards.

Islanders traded Griffin Reinhart to Edmonton for what now is Barzal

Rangers traded Brassard for a younger less established Zibanajad

So of the 13 teams involved in your examples: 3 teams acquiring the PREMIUM assets have won 4 cups. On the other side of the ledger, NAS and DAL each made the finals once.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by TOfan

You’re laying it on a little thick.

The Flames aren’t as dumb as you like to believe.

I was agreeing with you, you said now is not the time to sell.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

So of the 13 teams involved in your examples: 3 teams acquiring the PREMIUM assets have won 4 cups. On the other side of the ledger, NAS and DAL each made the finals once.

I'm not saying by trading away premium assets your going to win the cup here though, far from it.

But the Flames aren't winning a cup this year, they're not winning it next year either at this rate.

But what I do know is they have premium assets with a bit more term they could trade away at the deadline this year and turn those players into future assets to hopefully help us down the road.
This during a year where the depth in the draft is touted and regarded as one of the BEST in the past 2 decades.

You don't rebuild to win a cup in the next 2 years.
You re-BUILD to change your core, getting younger and hopefully contest in 3-5 years

Penguins 'sorta' did it years ago, got lucky and got Crosby & Malkin
Colorado did it years ago, got lucky and got MacKinnon, Landeskog, Makar etc
Buffalo has been doing it for a while, just starting to look good
New Jersey has been doing it for a while, just starting to look good
Detroit is currently going through it, they've got a good young prospect base but not likely to contend any time soon
Vancouver SHOULD be doing it, but they'll likely try and re-tool and remain inconsistent

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Royle9

I'm not saying by trading away premium assets your going to win the cup here though, far from it.

But the Flames aren't winning a cup this year, they're not winning it next year either at this rate.

But what I do know is they have premium assets with a bit more term they could trade away at the deadline this year and turn those players into future assets to hopefully help us down the road.
This during a year where the depth in the draft is touted and regarded as one of the BEST in the past 2 decades.

You don't rebuild to win a cup in the next 2 years.
You re-BUILD to change your core, getting younger and hopefully contest in 3-5 years

Penguins 'sorta' did it years ago, got lucky and got Crosby & Malkin
Colorado did it years ago, got lucky and got MacKinnon, Landeskog, Makar etc
Buffalo has been doing it for a while, just starting to look good
New Jersey has been doing it for a while, just starting to look good
Detroit is currently going through it, they've got a good young prospect base but not likely to contend any time soon
Vancouver SHOULD be doing it, but they'll likely try and re-tool and remain inconsistent

By your logic, STL should have done it and sold Pietrangelo and Tarasenko...they had little reason to believe they were near contending after all.

WAS certainly should have sold Backstrom and Carlson long ago.

[kyuss275]

I was into rebuild in summer. That ship has sailed. Whether we like it or not this group has to figure it out. Not sure if it’s , Gm change, coach change or both. They might tinker with roster but they are not trading away all there top 6 players or top 3-4 dmen unless they are getting players that will help them win now . Anybody that wants to see a rebuild this off season better have a lot of money to buy the team.

[Royle9]

No, my point is the Flames have never undergone a full rebuild. Ever.
There's no logic of what other teams have done in comparison to what I want or think.
I don't care what other teams do, I don't cheer for them and I don't pay for their season tickets.

What I do care about is seeing the Flames win a Stanley cup in my adult lifetime, I just want them to compete and do so for more than 1-2 times every 10 years.

What I don't want is to trade away our assets (prospects/picks) NOW for players like Schenn or other rentals simply because we think we're 1 depth piece away from getting in, and the ol 'you just have to get in to win' mentality.

Sellers not buyers this year.

[Kickazzflames]

The idea of a rebuild vanished when we signed Huberdeau, Kadri and Weegar long term. Even if we decided to be sellers, the guys we would have available for trade are not going to bring back much to move the needle.

Our new core is locked up and unless we are making old time hockey trades with talent for talent the likely hood of us changing at this point is rough. The most we will likely see is supporting cast changes or an addition of a big piece with term.

We desperately need our top paid guys to play like they are paid to. We have now lost 20 one goal games this year. People need to step up their game and show why they have these large contracts, this includes our goaltending. This is likely an adjustment year as the guys we have built our team around for the past 6-7 years are now gone.

The insane over hype by the media surrounding this team coming into this season created some crazy expectations. I was nervous about chemistry and Toffoli the most, but he has done his job well. What I wasn't expecting, is so many players taking a step back this year.

Sutter's system has done well to keep us in games, it's on the players to find that next level. Especially on the PP. Would also be nice to have a goalie steal us a game for once.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Royle9

You still cant provide any examples of your hot take which is comical.

Why do you keep talking as if the Flames are on the brink of winning a cup here? You are so delusional in the thought that a rebuild means you have to win the cup right away.

You dont, you're not going to.
But your surely attempting to do more than just sitting there hoping you can win something by keeping a mediocre core and adding to it with depth plugs.

Here's some trades for you:

Preds traded away prime Erat for Filip Forsberg, getting younger and better just 2 years later.

Stars traded away Loui Eriksson in his prime for Seguin

Buffalo traded away a prime O'Reilly for a 1st, Tage Thompson and more

Flyers traded away prime Richards & Carter for Simmonds, Schenn and Voracek who all turned into great NHL forwards.

Islanders traded Griffin Reinhart to Edmonton for what now is Barzal

Rangers traded Brassard for a younger less established Zibanajad

None of these teams have won a cup. I asked you to provide examples of Stanley Cup winners that “rebuilt” based on your narrow definition prior to winning a Stanley Cup.

It’s not that I can’t provide examples of the Flames traded PREMIUM assets for blah blah blah, it’s that there is no reason for me to provide those examples because my entire point is that using that specific definition of a rebuild is A) made up, because teams successfully rebuild without doing it and B) leads to mediocre teams more often than Stanley Cup winners.

You didn’t provide a single example of a Stanley Cup winner. Why not? Is it because you saw that your specific version of rebuilding isn’t actually a recipe for meaningful success?

The funny thing is that outside of Ottawa and Edmonton, the rest of those teams who traded PREMIUM ASSETS for picks/prospects (because they’re building contenders, or something) traded with teams that had just or went directly on to winning the Stanley Cup. Washington, Boston, St. louis, LA, all teams that won cups while the teams you mentioned didn’t. You’re not really selling your vision here. You want us to trade premium assets for picks/prospects so that the teams we trade with can win cups while we remain in mediocrity? Because that’s all you gave examples of, which doesn’t seem exciting.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Kickazzflames

The idea of a rebuild vanished when we signed Huberdeau, Kadri and Weegar long term. Even if we decided to be sellers, the guys we would have available for trade are not going to bring back much to move the needle.

Our new core is locked up and unless we are making old time hockey trades with talent for talent the likely hood of us changing at this point is rough. The most we will likely see is supporting cast changes or an addition of a big piece with term.

This line of thinking isn't really true though. Kadri, Weegar, and Huberdeau could be the tank commanders if management went that way. The only players signed in 25/26 are Huberdeau, Kadri, Coleman, Weegar, Anderson, and Markstrom and the next year Anderson and Markstrom are UFA.

[dobbles]

Originally Posted by Royle9

You still cant provide any examples of your hot take which is comical.

Why do you keep talking as if the Flames are on the brink of winning a cup here? You are so delusional in the thought that a rebuild means you have to win the cup right away.

You dont, you're not going to.
But your surely attempting to do more than just sitting there hoping you can win something by keeping a mediocre core and adding to it with depth plugs.

Here's some trades for you:

Preds traded away prime Erat for Filip Forsberg, getting younger and better just 2 years later.

Stars traded away Loui Eriksson in his prime for Seguin

Buffalo traded away a prime O'Reilly for a 1st, Tage Thompson and more

Flyers traded away prime Richards & Carter for Simmonds, Schenn and Voracek who all turned into great NHL forwards.

Islanders traded Griffin Reinhart to Edmonton for what now is Barzal

Rangers traded Brassard for a younger less established Zibanajad

Is there a single example here where a team was in rebuild mode? These are all just hockey trades. And I am sorry, but calling Martin 'never broke 60 points in a season' Erat a PreMiUm AssEt is just comical. You have dug in way too far man. Just let it go.