[News] CSEC and City of Calgary agree to restart formal discussions on new arena

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Take away the creosote, and it's still flanked by barriers on all sides that inhibit good pedestrian access. Bow Trail and the CP tracks. River. 14th St Interchange and Crowchild. Just awful. Any integration into the surrounding area is inhibited. Any active transport access is severely restricted.

Transit access is noticeably worse than a Victoria Park location. Sure there's Sunalta Station, but that is only one line. Access to the Red Line is twice as far a walk (with the aforementioned pedestrian barriers), won't be anywhere near the Green Line. The Blue Line doesn't have the capacity to take on that kind of traffic. So it's a site that has worse access, which will push more people to drive, in which case where will they park? The purpose of this project isn't to have more parking, surely.

The West Village site is isolated and restrictive to the kind of traffic that helps develop the surrounding area. Adding to it, the scale of an arena or arena/stadium monstrosity would only further isolate any developable area on the western portion of the site, as arenas and stadiums are in themselves barriers, making it even less desirable for development (aside from parking lots, likely).


I'd disagree. The city is pushing the EV site because it will help provide the opportunities to make the area better.

The Flames are pushing WV because it creates the opportunities for them to make them more money.

Access to the Blue line versus the Red line is a wash. Currently Blue liners transfer, WV would just make it go the other way.

The pedestrian access would be a pretty easy fix. All along 9th and the river. And further development is obviously planned - that's why they want to do it.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Slava

I'm all for biking infrastructure, but who's biking home from a Flames game at 10:30pm after 4-5 beers?

You think all 20,000 fans drink and get loaded?

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Slava

I'm all for biking infrastructure, but who's biking home from a Flames game at 10:30pm after 4-5 beers?

I'm all for car infrastructure, but who's driving home from a Flames game at 10:30pm after 4-5 beers?


Also, ever seen the bike parking at Calgary Folk Fest where an equivalent number of people have likely had 4-5 beers and are getting out around 11pm?

Spoiler!

[Joborule]

West Village option transit wouldn't be as strong as it would be in the Rivers/Stampede area since it's only one line rather than technically all 3 within the vicinity, but the Blue Line would easily be able to handle the capacity. Also the MAX Yellow for those in the SW is an option. The Red Line has to handle McMahon Stadium crowd which can be higher crowds than at the Saddledome for some games, and it handles that with ease.

One thing I wonder about that aside from the real estate play, if CSEC wants the West Village to have easier access to possibly lots of their season ticket holders? West Calgary is a part of the town that has a lot of money, so a fair number of ticket holders may be in that area. Having easier access by vehicle and transit may be a factor here; although the difference isn't that significant.

The major drawback of WV that's hard for me to get past is just how much space the Arena/Stadium would take up that'll hurt the potential of that area. The space is constraint, and the venue would likely take up the entire core of the area; where it's potential is the highest. Unless CSEC is paying about 80 percent of the costs for the venues, province covers cleanup, and the city deals with the infrastructure costs, I don't think it would make sense for the city to be onboard. The city is better off with this being done in the Rivers area; even if the city would have to pay a higher percentage of costs for the arena. In the long run it's worth it.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Joborule

One thing I wonder about that aside from the real estate play, if CSEC wants the West Village to have easier access to possibly lots of their season ticket holders? West Calgary is a part of the town that has a lot of money, so a fair number of ticket holders may be in that area. Having easier access by vehicle and transit may be a factor here; although the difference isn't that significant.

This is what I have wondered as well. Given the economic demographics of west Calgary, I wonder if a WV location makes it more convenient for the Flames' season ticket base to access the arena, if that's where most STHs are primarily located (and also close to all the head offices downtown; so, in between home and work). I have no data for this obviously, it would be really interesting see if someone tracks this info.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Muta

I think the WV location is a terrific location and has more accessible, city-wide major transportation routes than the current location - N-S on Crowchild Trail, E-W on Bow Trail, the river path on the north side, and accessible on the Blue Line LRT. Its proximity to Kensington, Sunalta and west downtown is great too, and biking becomes more of a legitimate option. Great aesthetic location for residential and commercial development too... I think 10th Street is going to become the next 'it' street in Calgary, starting in Sunalta (and it's already starting).

The only thing I don't like is that it doesn't connect as easy to the Green Line and Red Line LRTs, and you would need to transfer as a train commuter. That said, I don't think it's an impossible challenge to cross; currently, you have to do it to get onto the Blue Line from the Saddledome anyways.

Vic Park:
Blue line - 750m walk from City Hall station to the Vic Park arena.
Red line - 400m walk from Stampede station going north side of BMO and cutting through around the back of the casino.
Green line - 150m walk.

West Village:
Blue line - 150m walk to Sunalta Station
Red line - 1.6km to 7th St station (north bound); 1.4km to 8th St (south bound)
Green line - 2.3km to 2nd St Station

It's a big difference for transit between the two.

[Flames0910]

Originally Posted by Slava

I'm all for biking infrastructure, but who's biking home from a Flames game at 10:30pm after 4-5 beers?

Have you ever tried it?

It would be nice if the flames provided better facilities (security once flagged me for a blinking red light that they figured was a bomb lol), and great if the city built a proper bike route to/from but riding past the line of standstill cars as cops wave you through is actually super fun (last time it was even better than the game ).

[Muta]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Vic Park:
Blue line - 750m walk from City Hall station to the Vic Park arena.
Red line - 400m walk from Stampede station going north side of BMO and cutting through around the back of the casino.
Green line - 150m walk.

West Village:
Blue line - 150m walk to Sunalta Station
Red line - 1.6km to 7th St station (north bound); 1.4km to 8th St (south bound)
Green line - 2.3km to 2nd St Station

It's a big difference for transit between the two.

Well I very clearly stated that access to the Red and Green LRT lines from the WV aren't ideal... I also noted that the Saddledome means people using the Blue Line have to transfer trains as is, so it's not an unprecedented scenario. What are you specifically wanting to prove here? I also doubt the Blue Line /Sunalta Station is 150M from any WV development.

[UKflames]

Originally Posted by jayswin

What do you mean? There hasn't been a tangible update that suggests things are close since the Flames backed out of the last deal. They're starting to meet again, and I'd imagine if/when material prices are at a desirable level for the Flames they'll agree to basically the same deal they backed out of and we'll have a new arena on the way.

I was just trying to get off the private versus government arguement

[Monahammer]

1.2-1.33 km walk down river walk, which could be filled with buskers or other things on the way to a northbound train station? Doesn't sound too bad IMO.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Muta

Well I very clearly stated that access to the Red and Green LRT lines from the WV aren't ideal... I also noted that the Saddledome means people using the Blue Line have to transfer trains as is, so it's not an unprecedented scenario. What are you specifically wanting to prove here? I also doubt the Blue Line /Sunalta Station is 150M from any WV development.

I specifically wanted to list what the distances are.

Why do blue line passengers have to transfer trains to go to the Saddledome? If you are on blue line you'd walk the 7-8 mins to/from City Hall and not 4 mins to/from the red line and then add in a transfer downtown.

Anytime I go to the Saddledome I use the free fare zone to get to the east end of downtown and walk the rest of the way from City Hall station. It's quick and would be even quicker to the new arena.

Perhaps you have access to a map of sorts and can measure the Sunalta platform to the entrance of Blow Your Socks Off Arena. Looks like 150m to me should do it but what are you specifically wanting to prove here? Assuming a ped bridge straight over Bow Trail.

[timun]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

1.2-1.33 km walk down river walk, which could be filled with buskers or other things on the way to a northbound train station? Doesn't sound too bad IMO.

On a Tuesday night in January? Sounds ####ing miserable.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Why do blue line passengers have to transfer trains to go to the Saddledome? If you are on blue line you'd walk the 7-8 mins to/from City Hall and not 4 mins to/from the red line and then add in a transfer downtown.

Anytime I go to the Saddledome I use the free fare zone to get to the east end of downtown and walk the rest of the way from City Hall station. It's quick and would be even quicker to the new arena.

Not sure that everyone going to a game walks from City Hall, just because you do. People also transfer onto the Red Line at other downtown stations, which aren't as close as City Hall is. Additionally, if it's below zero and snowy, many people aren't going to walk to the 'Dome from downtown; they'll get on the Red Line at any one of the downtown stations and get off at Stampede (or Erlton) station and walk from there. Hell, people do that when it's fairly warm and not snowy too.

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Perhaps you have access to a map of sorts and can measure the Sunalta platform to the entrance of Blow Your Socks Off Arena. Looks like 150m to me should do it but what are you specifically wanting to prove here? Assuming a ped bridge straight over Bow Trail.

You can use Google Maps and the measuring feature, but I would have assumed you knew how to do that. Going by the footprint of the previous arena /fieldhouse design, since we don't have another reference point, the entrance to both facilities would have placed Sunalta Station at about the 90-110M mark. 150m would be sort of the 'middle' of the site, and you'd be in the facilities by then.

You know that you can have a great discussion without being snippy, right? Please try to rise above that.

[Table 5]

WV could be done as a location, but I'm not sure I'd go as far as calling it terrific...especially when Vic Park already offers pretty much everything it could...but even more so. The 3:1 train line ratio alone is a huge deal for an event centre (even more important if you want an arena/stadium superplex)...but Vic Park also offers existing infrastructure (from both the Stampede and City) that can handle large/overflow crowds, is already close to an existing entertainment district (17th Ave, casinos, etc), and is walkable to a large population base with Beltline and a growing EV next door. It's basically all there...it just needs a new arena.

WV has none or very little of this...and that is outside of the fact that the land needs remediation, you'd need to re-route Bow Trail, and probably do a whole bunch of not-insignificant infrastructure improvements to the area. It will take minimum half a decade just to get to a point where you can start building an arena.

I'm not sure there's really anything that would be better in a West Village location...apart form perhaps less Stampede Board influence (but then again I'm not sure the Flames are any better).

[Ozy_Flame]

Quick/pedestrian access to Kensington, Sunalta, 10th ave, 14th street, and all the potential new ground-level retail as part of a master plan would already make it far more amenable to an evening experience with urban access, restaurants, and potentially even hotels. Also, quick access to Shaganappi, Crowchild, and close proximity to the ring road are all fantastic options. Let's also not forget BRT access too.

Add in a couple of additional items like theatres, outdoor plaza/ampitheatre, skating rinks, a field house, gyms, event space for things like farmers markets and expos, and other tourist destinations and it could really be a go-to spot for the city.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Muta

Not sure that everyone going to a game walks from City Hall, just because you do. People also transfer onto the Red Line at other downtown stations, which aren't as close as City Hall is. Additionally, if it's below zero and snowy, many people aren't going to walk to the 'Dome from downtown; they'll get on the Red Line at any one of the downtown stations and get off at Stampede (or Erlton) station and walk from there. Hell, people do that when it's fairly warm and not snowy too.

Well, I can't fix the stupidity of the population but right now vs new arena is a different time value calculation.

Right now City Hall is 800m more walking distance than the Stampede station is to the Saddledome. 1.2km vs 400m. Most see that extra 8 minutes walk as too much effort and would rather stand on the platform waiting for the next train and switch.

The new location is down to just an extra 350m to the blue line instead. If people want to switch trains to save 3-4 minutes of walking then they're free to do so. Stupid, but fine by me.

Not to mention how packed the red line gets, so I bet leaving the game you're waiting for the next train whereas you're getting onto an empty blue line at City Hall.

If the walk to Erlton (that is 900m) is ok in your eyes why would the 750m walk from City Hall to the new arena not be a good thing.

Originally Posted by Muta

You can use Google Maps and the measuring feature, but I would have assumed you knew how to do that. Going by the footprint of the previous arena /fieldhouse design, since we don't have another reference point, the entrance to both facilities would have placed Sunalta Station at about the 90-110M mark. 150m would be sort of the 'middle' of the site, and you'd be in the facilities by then.

You know that you can have a great discussion without being snippy, right? Please try to rise above that.

I did use Google Maps captain. It's 110m from Sunalta platform to the other side of Bow Trail. I rounded up a bit to 150m for simplicity, but if you want to split an atom over 40m then I can't grasp why an extra km to the red line station at Century Gardens isn't a big big deal. (Because you have a vested interest in this location?)

You know that you can have a great discussion without being arrogant right?

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Quick/pedestrian access to Kensington, Sunalta, 10th ave, 14th street, and all the potential new ground-level retail as part of a master plan would already make it far more amenable to an evening experience with urban access, restaurants, and potentially even hotels. Also, quick access to Shaganappi, Crowchild, and close proximity to the ring road are all fantastic options. Let's also not forget BRT access too.

Add in a couple of additional items like theatres, outdoor plaza/ampitheatre, skating rinks, a field house, gyms, event space for things like farmers markets and expos, and other tourist destinations and it could really be a go-to spot for the city.

Yeah this all sounds great... but by the time this is all there, half of CP will be dead from old age.

Alternatively, you can have a good chunk of this experience now, and with an arena within 3/4 years.

[monkeyman]

For a whole myriad of reasons already mentioned and have been mentioned time and time again, the WV is a terrible location. Im disappointed they’re even entertaining the idea. The longer they entertain this boondoggle, the worse it’s going to be for everyone in the long run.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Muta

I think the WV location is a terrific location and has more accessible, city-wide major transportation routes than the current location - N-S on Crowchild Trail, E-W on Bow Trail, the river path on the north side, and accessible on the Blue Line LRT. Its proximity to Kensington, Sunalta and west downtown is great too and biking becomes more of a legitimate option. Great aesthetic location for residential and commercial development too... I think 10th Street is going to become the next 'it' street in Calgary, starting in Sunalta (and it's already starting).

Bow Trail isn't a city wide transportation route. It serves the same people best served by transit. Nobody should be taking Bow Trail to go to the arena in the West Village. Crowchild similarly is best used by people who already have the best transit access. These roads being the major transportation points would mostly serve to take more people off transit use, which is extremely undesirable.

If people are driving to the arena, where are they going to park? Is the rest of the West Village not going to be developed and just stay surface lots? If the justifications for an arena in the West Village are 'its easier to drive to' then it's a project that isn't in the best interest of the area.

The only thing I don't like is that it doesn't connect as easy to the Green Line and Red Line LRTs, and you would need to transfer as a train commuter. That said, I don't think it's an impossible challenge to cross; currently, you have to do it to get onto the Blue Line from the Saddledome anyways.

It's worse than the Saddledome is now, but that isn't even what it should be compared to. The proposed Victoria Park location is a 600m walk from the Red Line, 800m walk from the Blue Line. Effectively on the Green Line. The ability to easily move people around is exponentially greater in a Victoria Park location, and move around better in a better way.

Because of the restrictions on the Stampede Grounds themselves, a Vic Park location has better parking options in perpetuity as well, even if the revenue goes to the wrong people (in CSEC's view).

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The pedestrian access would be a pretty easy fix. All along 9th and the river.

Which makes the walk longer and less desirable. Especially in winter.

Also not an easy fix because of the Bow/9th Ave and 14th St Interchange. Sending people north to the river or south to 9th run into the same problem. Conflict with infrastructure designed to make car travel easier and faster. So it's a very expensive fix.

And further development is obviously planned - that's why they want to do it.

The further development is planned doesn't have the majority of the land being taken up by an arena or arena/stadium. When you say 'that's why they want to do it' you are only talking about the Flames, who want to do it because the WV location is where they can make money off development, because they can't with an EV location because the land and development rights belong to somebody else. The city doesn't want the arena in the West Village.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Well, I can't fix the stupidity of the population but right now vs new arena is a different time value calculation.

Right now City Hall is 800m more walking distance than the Stampede station is to the Saddledome. 1.2km vs 400m. Most see that extra 8 minutes walk as too much effort and would rather stand on the platform waiting for the next train and switch.

The new location is down to just an extra 350m to the blue line instead. If people want to switch trains to save 3-4 minutes of walking then they're free to do so. Stupid, but fine by me.

Not to mention how packed the red line gets, so I bet leaving the game you're waiting for the next train whereas you're getting onto an empty blue line at City Hall.

If the walk to Erlton (that is 900m) is ok in your eyes why would the 750m walk from City Hall to the new arena not be a good thing.

Well, this is all based around your walking experience, which is fine, but it's not for everybody and it never will be. When it's cold and snowy out, especially during an NHL season, people will take the train because it means heated shelters and transportation instead of walking. I'm not sure calling the general population 'stupid' compared to you is a very valuable addition to the conversation either.

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

I did use Google Maps captain. It's 110m from Sunalta platform to the other side of Bow Trail. I rounded up a bit to 150m for simplicity, but if you want to split an atom over 40m then I can't grasp why an extra km to the red line station at Century Gardens isn't a big big deal. (Because you have a vested interest in this location?)

You know that you can have a great discussion without being arrogant right?

Rounding up is fine, you can do what you want. It's your argument. However I'm using actual reference points from previous design work, but if that annoys you, feel free to move on. As well, some advice - if someone disagrees with you, you can respond in polite and civil discourse. You don't have to go to instant 'I'm offended and need to rage' mode. Would be nice if the integrity of your posts could rise above that.