Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Azure

You can add to this.

10. A government that can't even effectively spend the taxpayer money they ARE allocating to specific things.

So… spending is bad, but when they don’t spend as much as allocated it is also bad?

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Yoho

Tight polls.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1622267849237487619

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

... Yup, that's another Liberal minority right there.

Looks like a BQ government to me. Whichever party forms government they will only remain in power as long they keep the BQ happy.

[flamesfever]

If you want to talk about healthcare, when I went for a procedure at the McCaig building the other day, I was having a hard time finding a parking space. Under the building are 5 levels of parking. The top two levels are for patients and the bottom 3 levels are for staff only. When I went upstairs there were a number of staff in red outfits casually chatting here and there, not appearing to be working. It struck me that our hospitals have become huge inefficient bureaucracies.

It has always irked me about the standoff between Trudeau and the Premiers with regard to increased funding for healthcare. Trudeau says he won't give any extra money until the Premiers can show positive results, and the Premiers say they are unable to show positive results without the increase in funding.

Hopefully Trudeau is gradually coming to realize that we have to try something different with our healthcare, because of the horrendous waiting times. His latest friendly comments with Dougie Ford in Ontario indicate he may consider going along with the funding of more privatization, by allowing some of the procedures to be shifted from the hospitals to private clinics e.g. various eye operations and joint replacements etc.

I believe the lack of privatization is what sets us apart from the top 9 best healthcare countries in the world, that are ahead of us. I believe that a majority of people in Canada will tend to resist this, until they realize they won't have to pay for the services, and the efficiencies created will drastically reduce wait times.

People don't realize how much of our healthcare is already private. A lot of private healthcare is already being done in the provinces. For example, all the little offices run by GPs are private businesses, that operate for a profit.

If Trudeau goes along with this, and we start gaining some ground in our healthcare, I might even start to show a tad more respect for him.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

It has always irked me about the standoff between Trudeau and the Premiers with regard to increased funding for healthcare. Trudeau says he won't give any extra money until the Premiers can show positive results, and the Premiers say they are unable to show positive results without the increase in funding.

Source for this? Because just today there are several articles about the upcoming healthcare contract talks and none of them support your version.

[GGG]

What makes you believe the lack of privatization is the issue when comparing Canadian outcomes to Europe vs higher wages paid to staff as a result of competition from the US?

[Wormius]

You went to a hospital and saw staff chatting and that formed your entire perspective on healthcare in Alberta and Canada? My god, it’s like those people who freaked out when nurses made a 30 second tiktok dance video on their break.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by GGG

What makes you believe the lack of privatization is the issue when comparing Canadian outcomes to Europe vs higher wages paid to staff as a result of competition from the US?

Simply raising wages is not getting to the heart of the problem. Trudeau is right when he says I am not going to simply throw money at the provinces. The main problem is the inefficiencies of the hospitals, as we have presently structured them.

The main impass, with regard to the Federal Government increasing the funding to the provinces, seems to be establishing accountability. With privatization, it seems to me that if the money is more targeted, in the case of funding these private clinics, the Government would more easily be able to quantify and compare results, and thereby justify the spending.

I believe it is common knowledge that the private sector is more efficient than the public sector, so theoretically moving the procedures from the hospitals to the clinics should give positive results with regard to waiting times. I believe this has been demonstrated in other countries.

[b1crunch]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

If you want to talk about healthcare, when I went for a procedure at the McCaig building the other day, I was having a hard time finding a parking space. Under the building are 5 levels of parking. The top two levels are for patients and the bottom 3 levels are for staff only. When I went upstairs there were a number of staff in red outfits casually chatting here and there, not appearing to be working. It struck me that our hospitals have become huge inefficient bureaucracies.

lol. Is this a serious post?

I've been around some construction/road crews in my time, and it's super common to see 5-6 guys watching 1 worker do something. This past summer, they redid the pavement on my street and half a dozen workers were often relaxing in the shade on my front lawn, while 1 or 2 workers with a shovel did some light work. By your logic above, this is evidence that all private construction/road crews are inefficient.

Or, and just hear me out on this... maybe you don't see the whole picture of a workday with just a small glimpse of the workers. There is a hell of a lot more at play than just the few minutes you see someone at work. This goes for all jobs and work scenarios.

Crapping on an industry for what you think you see happening in a small window of time is ridiculous for any profession.

[b1crunch]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Simply raising wages is not getting to the heart of the problem. Trudeau is right when he says I am not going to simply throw money at the provinces. The main problem is the inefficiencies of the hospitals, as we have presently structured them.

The main impass, with regard to the Federal Government increasing the funding to the provinces, seems to be establishing accountability. With privatization, it seems to me that if the money is more targeted, in the case of funding these private clinics, the Government would more easily be able to quantify and compare results, and thereby justify the spending.

I believe it is common knowledge that the private sector is more efficient than the public sector, so theoretically moving the procedures from the hospitals to the clinics should give positive results with regard to waiting times. I believe this has been demonstrated in other countries.

You understand there are positives and negatives for everything right? Privatization may be more efficient, although that is debatable, but efficiency comes with its own downsides. I mean, the United States may have a more efficient system in regards to wait times than our but it has plenty of drawbacks as well. We're not just going to magically fix this. We're basically going to trade some positives and negatives for another set of positives and negatives. Which, whatever, that may be the right thing to do. But certainly, there's no magic fix to the situtaion.

[btimbit]

Just an immediate "#### no" to any more privatization of healthcare. Pretending that's the only solution is insane. People might not like to hear it, but yes, a major issue is funding. You know what would decrease wait times? More hospitals would be great, but the ability to fully staff the ones we have would be a good start. the Canada Health Transfer used to increase by 6% a year, that has gone down in recent years.

The Feds are supposed to table an offer to the Premiers on Tuesday, so we'll just have to see. But just like the 2017 deal for mental health money, it's going to come with strings attached. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but until we know what those strings are, who's to say

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by b1crunch

You understand there are positives and negatives for everything right? Privatization may be more efficient, although that is debatable, but efficiency comes with its own downsides. I mean, the United States may have a more efficient system in regards to wait times than our but it has plenty of drawbacks as well. We're not just going to magically fix this. We're basically going to trade some positives and negatives for another set of positives and negatives. Which, whatever, that may be the right thing to do. But certainly, there's no magic fix to the situtaion.

No one is saying that there is a magic fix. But the healthcare system, in its present form, is unsustainable in my opinion, without additional funding and structural changes.

In spite of what I have said, I believe the healthcare system in Alberta is much better than other provinces.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Simply raising wages is not getting to the heart of the problem. Trudeau is right when he says I am not going to simply throw money at the provinces. The main problem is the inefficiencies of the hospitals, as we have presently structured them.

The main impass, with regard to the Federal Government increasing the funding to the provinces, seems to be establishing accountability. With privatization, it seems to me that if the money is more targeted, in the case of funding these private clinics, the Government would more easily be able to quantify and compare results, and thereby justify the spending.

I believe it is common knowledge that the private sector is more efficient than the public sector, so theoretically moving the procedures from the hospitals to the clinics should give positive results with regard to waiting times. I believe this has been demonstrated in other countries.

I think you missed my point in your first paragraph. I was saying that when we compare healthcare outcomes with European nations based on per person spending Canada often comes out behind. The argument you appear to be making is that this is do to a lack of private involvement. I’m suggesting that because we compete with the US for labour our labour costs are higher than our European counterparts and that is much of the reason for the difference in outcomes per dollar spent.

Reporting results is on thing I’d argue the government does far better than the private sector. It’s a cost that offers no income therefore unless it’s driving optimization the reporting you want done likely doesn’t as not happen unless mandatory.

I think it’s a significant myth that the private sector is always more efficient. In order for the competition motive to drive costs down and efficiency up you need low barriers to entry to ensure competition, you need a consumer with repeated opportunities to make a choice between provider, you need a consumer that is aware of the cost of their choice and you need a consumer that is knowledgeable enough to not be at a large information deficit. Without these things all efficiency is absorbed by profit and lower quality.

I’d suggest that expanding private health care to things like surgeries and hospital services is much closer to Canadian telecom or groceries then and industry that will have real competition. Remember that Saskatchewan has lower cell phone prices because of its public sector telecom. Could the private sector help? Yes in things like a Family doctor where you make many visits and have an opportunity for choice it likely works ok. The payment structure though clearly drives inefficiency into the system encouraging multiple visits. In any public funded private delivery system there will be drag as people game the system to maximize profit.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Simply raising wages is not getting to the heart of the problem. Trudeau is right when he says I am not going to simply throw money at the provinces. The main problem is the inefficiencies of the hospitals, as we have presently structured them.

The main impass, with regard to the Federal Government increasing the funding to the provinces, seems to be establishing accountability. With privatization, it seems to me that if the money is more targeted, in the case of funding these private clinics, the Government would more easily be able to quantify and compare results, and thereby justify the spending.

I believe it is common knowledge that the private sector is more efficient than the public sector, so theoretically moving the procedures from the hospitals to the clinics should give positive results with regard to waiting times. I believe this has been demonstrated in other countries.

The private sector is not efficient. Even Zuckerberg thinks so, with his “managers managing managers, managing managers, managing managers, managing the people who are doing the work” comment.

Private long term care homes have some of the highest prices and lowest quality of care. This stems from their “requirement” to make a sizeable profit. Is that efficient? Only someone who cares about profit might think so

[Northendzone]

quebec drug lab shutting down despite a $173 million dollar gift from the federal government - which maybe generated some constructions jobs while building the new plant - who knows

"In October 2020, before the vaccine was approved, the federal government penned a deal to buy up to 76 million doses of the drug, in addition to providing $173 million in funding to support the vaccine's development and the construction of a new Quebec City manufacturing plant."

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/corona...down-1.6258785

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

quebec drug lab shutting down despite a $173 million dollar gift from the federal government - which maybe generated some constructions jobs while building the new plant - who knows

"In October 2020, before the vaccine was approved, the federal government penned a deal to buy up to 76 million doses of the drug, in addition to providing $173 million in funding to support the vaccine's development and the construction of a new Quebec City manufacturing plant."

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/corona...down-1.6258785

so what? Is this supposed to be a shot at the Liberals for "wasting" the money? It doesn't hit.

At the time with what we were going through with COVID and before the vaccines came out, I think the money was a fair spend. Especially as there was outrage at not having a home gown vaccine.
The landscape of vaccines has greatly changed since then.

[TheIronMaiden]

A point worth making about healthcare in general is that it is close to the most effective it has ever been. Not to suggest that there is not room for improvement, but from a health outcome perspective it works. I think we've lost sight of the fact that before 1960 hospitals were by and large places to die.

[GoinAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

Especially as there was outrage at not having a home gown vaccine.
The landscape of vaccines has greatly changed since then.

Sounds like the provincial government is trying to find another buyer to keep the talent/technology here. Sure hope so. Unless news articles were blowing it up a bit much, sounds like there were on to something with their plant based vaccines. And having a manufacturer in our own backyard is never a bad idea.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by calculoso

The private sector is not efficient. Even Zuckerberg thinks so, with his “managers managing managers, managing managers, managing managers, managing the people who are doing the work” comment.

Private long term care homes have some of the highest prices and lowest quality of care. This stems from their “requirement” to make a sizeable profit. Is that efficient? Only someone who cares about profit might think so

I wonder how much more “efficient” our healthcare system would be if it had the ability to turn down services to the same percentage of the population that the private system in the US does.

[PepsiFree]

Honestly, they should start sending people home with receipts after medical procedures as I don’t think people really understand the exact benefit of what they’re getting. Or even the equivalent American healthcare plan cost that would cover it.

Private healthcare doesn’t really appeal as much when something like giving birth costs $20,000 or $1000 per month every month for your entire adult life to ensure stuff like that is covered.

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Honestly, they should start sending people home with receipts after medical procedures as I don’t think people really understand the exact benefit of what they’re getting. Or even the equivalent American healthcare plan cost that would cover it.

Private healthcare doesn’t really appeal as much when something like giving birth costs $20,000 or $1000 per month every month for your entire adult life to ensure stuff like that is covered.

Agreed. Problem is I don't think we even know how much a procedure costs and if we don't have an understanding of or costs how are we ever going to hope to get a handle on what needs to change - and our system desperately needs to change.

When I worked in the field we had a American who worked for us in Canada. He obviously did not have Alberta Health coverage and on one occasion he went to the hospital in Rocky Mountain House as he was not feeling well (he worked day shift so could not go to a medical clinic). He told them he'd pay cash, just give him the receipt so he could expense it through work. The hospital had no idea what the cost was, and did not have a way to generate an receipt anyhow.