Another school shooting.

[OILFAN #81]

IN 2005, a court order was issued in which a judge found Cho to be "mentally ill" and "an imminent danger to others". - CNN

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by FireFly

While I agree that in most cases writing about violence and acting out on those fantasies are two completely seperate issues, when you also take this into consideration:



it changes things. For a person who can communicate well with others, you get a better sense of their level of dimentia during normal conversation. For someone who cannot communicate with others very well, who isolates himself and has trouble fitting in, you often use the only tools you have available as the ones to help you cry for help. However, a person also needs to be receptive to that help, and it appears the killer in this case, wasn't. He was offered help. His prof spoke with him a number of times. However, you can't force a person to receive help. So he cried out for help, was offered it, and refused it. Hindsight is 20/20, and no one probably understood just the kind of help this kid needed, however, it's not like his work was ignored.

I with you on that. My only point was that you can't look at his plays in isolation and make the sane/insane detemination.

You are totally correct about hindsight and the "lead a horse to water but cannot make him drink" thought.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by OILFAN #81

IN 2005, a court order was issued in which a judge found Cho to be "mentally ill" and "an imminent danger to others". - CNN

Wow.
And he was able to buy a gun, even after that.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Agreed. I'll add another author to the that list. Chuck Palahniuk. The guy who wrote Fight Club. I've read a couple of his books, and Fight Club is easily the tamest. If he wasn't an established author his work would look very twisted, probably even more so than this guy.

That said, Chuck Palahnuik is probably a very balanced person in real life. So in regards to the shooter, it doesn't seem like there was enough to warrant serious suspension of violence.

Yup, and most people believe chuck to be an anarchist. He's still one of my favorite authors though. Maybe there's something wrong with me.

[OILFAN #81]

NBC recieved communication about shootings(mail) between the shootings. - CNN

Whoa, that's crazy stuff.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by Jayems

apparently he had imaginary super model girlfriend named Jelly, and he was called Spanky...

Yeah, I saw that yesterday when his ex-roomates got interviewed. He sounded like a pretty weird guy. One of them said he had to stop bringing over friends that were girls because he stalked a few of them.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Burninator

I asked this earlier in the thread. But what are you suppose to do? Of course in retrospect the signs are as clear as day. But lots of people are troubled or write about dark things. You obviously can't lock these people up or send them to an asylum. They have to show signs that they will commit acts of violence either on themselves or others, or commit a crime/violent act. Only then can you make them go to jail, counselling, take medication etc. But you can't do that to someone who writes about disturbing factious events or listens to angry music. Even idol threats are a sketchy area too.

Stephen King wrote a short novel called Rage about a student walking into his school and shooting people. Now the circumstances are not the same as this one, but you can't make Stephen King go see a psychologist.

Now where that line is of someone being disturbed to cause concern but is harmless and a disturbed someone causing harm, I don't know. I am just trying to make the point that if everyone who acts similar to this case I bet the lines to psychologists offices would be out the door. I think cases like this are so isolated that they are almost unavoidable.

The killer was a social recluse who rarely talked to anyone. Even his room mates and profs had trouble getting any words out of him. To me that's not a very common behaviour. I remeber kids in HS being social recluses but never to the extreme that the killer went.

I also thought it was kind of odd that students who were to grade his writings were careful what they said as they felt saying any thing too negative might set him off. To that indicates some fear. If you think a student is normal then why be careful how you word your review?

The school tried to get him into counseling. Plus he was also on antidepressants. That alone indicates the school new something was wrong. Problem is they didn't push this far enough.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7265139/

Students who could possibly present a threat to themselves and others may intentionally or unintentionally reveal clues to their thoughts and intentions that may suggest a propensity to commit an act of violence. This clue letting or as a profiler or a psychologist would say "leakage," may be a lonely cry for help or the solicitous actions of an individual looking for assistance in his plan to act out violently against others. Many shooters exhibit narcissistic and psychopathic personalities, traits that should be obvious to school officials, but characteristics that may be disguised or simply viewed as normal adolescent challenges.

Should a threat emanate from a student it should be immediately followed up on by the school administration and/or law enforcement. Study has shown that threats many times preceded school shootings, but they were dismissed as the frustrations of youth instead of looking at such threats as a marker along the path of an escalation process, one that, in the extreme, may lead to violence in the school setting. Although most students will not follow up on their threats, such continue to be one of the best pre-indicators of potential violence and should not simply be dismissed as the hollow words of a troubled youth.

[Burninator]

I am not saying that there wasn't anything wrong with him. Or that his behaviour wasn't weird. But every time there is a murderer, mass murderer or serial killer, there is always evidence that points to them having the ability to commit such an act, or that such an act was imminent. I am sure there is way more people that exhibit such behaviour but never harm anyone.

The line to know whether or not someone is going home and stew about something in their room and stay there or come out and kill someone is not a clear line. If it was, these things wouldn't happen right? Or perhaps someone is dropping the ball every time. Sometimes I am sure that is the case, but I think that these situations, although are extremely terrible and sad, but no amount of prevention will ensure that they don't happen again.

Just curious but how do you know someone who is an extreme "social recluse". The whole idea is kind of oxymoron.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by Dion

I remeber kids in HS being social recluses but never to the extreme that the killer went.

Yeah, I was very shy growing up and still am when I first meet somebody new but eventually I break out of that shell and can talk to them no problem. This guy lived with them for a whole year seeing them everyday and should have eventually been able to open up.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Burninator

I am not saying that there wasn't anything wrong with him. Or that his behaviour wasn't weird. But every time there is a murderer, mass murderer or serial killer, there is always evidence that points to them having the ability to commit such an act, or that such an act was imminent. I am sure there is way more people that exhibit such behaviour but never harm anyone.

The line to know whether or not someone is going home and stew about something in their room and stay there or come out and kill someone is not a clear line. If it was, these things wouldn't happen right? Or perhaps someone is dropping the ball every time. Sometimes I am sure that is the case, but I think that these situations, although are extremely terrible and sad, but no amount of prevention will ensure that they don't happen again.

Just curious but how do you know someone who is an extreme "social recluse". The whole idea is kind of oxymoron.

The bolded part is very true, however, we can try to learn from each event as it occurs. You're absolutely right in that there are probably hundreds of thousands of people who exhibit the same sorts of behaviours that this guy did before he went off, and not all of them, (not even a few hopefully) will ever go 'off' like that. However, in many cases, whether they will go off or not is likely irrelevant, and they should probably seek counselling regardless. A person's need for help should not be determined by the likelihood they'll eventually freak out. We need to heed the warning signs anyways.

And you don't 'know' someone who is a social recluse... you know of them. Maybe.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Burninator

I am not saying that there wasn't anything wrong with him. Or that his behaviour wasn't weird. But every time there is a murderer, mass murderer or serial killer, there is always evidence that points to them having the ability to commit such an act, or that such an act was imminent. I am sure there is way more people that exhibit such behaviour but never harm anyone.

The line to know whether or not someone is going home and stew about something in their room and stay there or come out and kill someone is not a clear line. If it was, these things wouldn't happen right? Or perhaps someone is dropping the ball every time. Sometimes I am sure that is the case, but I think that these situations, although are extremely terrible and sad, but no amount of prevention will ensure that they don't happen again.

Just curious but how do you know someone who is an extreme "social recluse". The whole idea is kind of oxymoron.

Do you want to take the risk that they might kill someone?

If the school wasn't going to push it any further then IMO they had an obligation to inform the students and parents of that students behaviour and anything they tried to do. Give the parents and students the option of deciding what to do for themselves.

How do I know what an extreme social recluse is? In HS (late 70's) there was this kid in my class who I considered an extreme social recluse. He didn't have many friends and had strange fasciantions with the the FBI and CIA and often talked about the KKK. Of course nobody took him serious and often teased him for his wierd thoughts. In fact most thought he was timid and harmless. About 15 years later I turn on the news to see that he and a few others were arrested for plotting to blow up the Jewish Centre in Calgary.

[FireFly]

They're doing a show on this on Oprah right now and they have on a survivor from Columbine who says the only way to stop this type of thing comes from, not just talking to the person, but emotionally connecting to them. Instead of saying 'don't be angry', give them a reason not to be.

[OILFAN #81]

NBC released some of the images from that package that was sent by Cho Seung Hui which was marked at 9:01 am Monday morning. Did anyone see that picture they just released with him holding 2 guns? That was scary. His face was so crazy expression wise. (it was taken an hour before the 2nd shootings)

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Yeah, I was very shy growing up and still am when I first meet somebody new but eventually I break out of that shell and can talk to them no problem. This guy lived with them for a whole year seeing them everyday and should have eventually been able to open up.

I'm much the same as you btw.

The fact that that guy didn't open up was the clue for me.

[OILFAN #81]

Originally Posted by fotze

The media must just love the guy, contacts NBC drung the rampage, gives them footage for their news prognosticators to pour over incessantly and then call it "Healing America" and other garbage. Cho is a boon to the news outlets.

Yup.

They just released the tape on CNN on television. From what I saw......that was some #####ed up sh*t. His expression was of hate to the extreme when he was talking on the videotape.

[Flames_Gimp]

Originally Posted by OILFAN #81

Yup.

They just released the tape on CNN on television. From what I saw......that was some #####ed up sh*t. His expression was of hate to the extreme when he was talking on the videotape.

link to the video?

[OILFAN #81]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

link to the video?

Haven't seen it online yet. It's on CNN right now on tv which is where I am watching it.

http://www.cnn.com/ will have some of the pictures/video. As I said it's on tv right now (the video).

[Ozy_Flame]

Wow. That video is chilling, and I'm sure its edited to just have the lighter parts of his monologue in there too.

What a selfish, selfish individual.

[Flames_Gimp]

insane in the membrane!

[J pold]

That is so disturbing

The worst part is that he seems to think he is doing some sort of justice…

“You made me do this” as soon as those words came out of his mouth…I was so upset