Russia invades Ukraine

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by karl262

That's funny!

Case in point.

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Put down the whiskey.

Canadians aren't tough farm types who would fight and die like they were in WW2 WW1 and Korea.

And outproduce with what? if someone invaded us and if the States decided to sit it out our cities would be pounded and what rusted forces and badly equip troops that we do have would be wiped out in days or a week.

And we don't have a armed civilian population like they did in Iraq for example or Vietnam.

I doubt Canadians would put up much of a fight the smart enemy would roll in and say free internet and cable and Canadians wouldn't show up to fight.

Chances are that if there was an invasion of Canada America would jump in to defend Canada and then keep what they defended. or if the enemy threatened America through canada they wouldn't consult with Canada before engaging in a aggressive war on Canadian soil.

I guess I'm asking "how Canada makes war", because it feels like our population generally has no idea.

Canada's geography makes it both undefendable and unassailable at the same time. Our strategy should reflect that. Gut feel as an outsider looking in, we need cyber, subs, air power (space), special forces and a small expeditionary army to meet obligations abroad / to keep up to date on technology / training.

As for the US attacking, we would need to see a deterioration of relations and eventually a massing of troops at the borders. This would take 5-10yrs and Canada's economy/military spending would drastically change as well as our strategic international relationships to counter. It's a waste of time to even include it in military planning at the moment. So who cares if they could annex us now. If they're trying to do that their country is probably already in the midst of a civil war (also unlikely).

In private industry readiness / equipment utilization is 80%+ every where I've seen or been. If total war were a scenario, I would expect those private citizens to quickly change the forces readiness levels and improve logistics of our current forces to private industry standards.

As much fun as it is to see this thread or other's mock the current armed forces procurement and political leadership, they would be very different in the lead up to war. Our country is filled with many brilliant minds, we do not have a corruption problem, we have the wealth and know how to build weapons to defend ourselves. Factories and supply chains can be setup in quick order if necessary. We only make things overseas because it's cheaper and we're capitalists. In the lead up to war, that all comes home and the benefit-cost decision matrix changes.

From my point of view Canada is an advanced economy, with huge geographic advantages. Ukraine was a salient surrounded on three sides with land links and the second most powerful force on Earth was unable to take it and is now in a war of attrition with a likely Israel/Another Turkey being built on their border. If push came to shove, Canada would beat the absolute wheels off the likely potential enemies.

What should be discussed by our political arm though, is what exactly the Canadian Forces are built for, and if we are going to have an arsenal for freedom/Western allies that is ready to be gifted/deployed at a moments notice.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Also, it is my understanding that much of the equipment will take a year to used in service.

The battlefield situation will likely be entirely different by then.

I believe The Poles have been training Ukrainians on Leopards in Poland for a while, I am sure I read that somewhere.

The UK has been training Ukrainians on battle tactics, potentially that includes Challenger 2 tanks?

The Challenger and definitely the Leopards are a much easier tank to operate thank the Abrams

I reckon they will be ready to go sooner than we think.

[Firebot]

There has been a lot of chirping going on with what appears to be Israeli drone strikes against Iran drone manufacturing plants that occured yesterday. The drones supposedly originated from an Israeli base located in Azerbaijan (whom they have developed strong relations with in recent years) to further complicate events.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ia-2023-01-28/

While Iran claims the attacks were unsuccessful, the videos of the explosions show...quite a different story.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1619492664818425856

Things are heating up, and while Israel publicly has rejected weapon aid to Ukraine, it doesn't stop them from attacking Iran's manufacturing under the guise of self preservation.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I believe The Poles have been training Ukrainians on Leopards in Poland for a while, I am sure I read that somewhere.

The UK has been training Ukrainians on battle tactics, potentially that includes Challenger 2 tanks?

The Challenger and definitely the Leopards are a much easier tank to operate thank the Abrams

I reckon they will be ready to go sooner than we think.

The US tanks that were just announced won't physically be in Ukraine for a year.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

The US tanks that were just announced won't physically be in Ukraine for a year.

Just another reason to want the Leopards more.

[JohnnyB]

The video I shared a couple of pages back suggested that training may have already been going on for a bit for F-16s that have barely even been publicly discussed as part of the aid to Ukraine. If that's the case, I would guess they've been doing training for other vehicles in advance of their approval too. Why wait for the approval when they need them in action as soon as they're received?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

The video I shared a couple of pages back suggested that training may have already been going on for a bit for F-16s that have barely even been publicly discussed as part of the aid to Ukraine. If that's the case, I would guess they've been doing training for other vehicles in advance of their approval too. Why wait for the approval when they need them in action as soon as they're received?

With a weapons system like Abrams it isn't the operators' training (which is difficult), but the maintenance and supple chain.

Remember this is a thirsty tank that drinks jet fuel.

Getting tanks to Ukraine and in the hands of tankers is the small part, the logistics of upkeep is the big part.

[CroFlames]

I talked with a MAGA American on the weekend. In addition to defending Trump's classified documents fiasco he also said he "doesn't blame Putin or Russia" for invading Ukraine. NATO is expanding into Putin's back yard, so he had to do something (this coming from a citizen of a country that enjoys NATO protection). He thinks sending the Abrams is not a good idea.

His analogy to try explaining the geopolitics to this obviously ignorant Canadian was to suggest "America would do the same if Russia began to set up bio labs and military bases in Canada".

My response was why haven't they invaded Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia who are literally NATO members on their doorstep? Of course, no response.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

With a weapons system like Abrams it isn't the operators' training (which is difficult), but the maintenance and supple chain.

Remember this is a thirsty tank that drinks jet fuel.

Getting tanks to Ukraine and in the hands of tankers is the small part, the logistics of upkeep is the big part.

That's why I find it odd that they haven't sent some Bradleys over there. They've got thousands of them mostly just sitting around, and they're the same platform as the M270 MLRS that Ukraine is already using.

[karl262]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Case in point.

The posters statement was that he did not support sending deadly weapons to Ukraine.

[karl262]

Originally Posted by opendoor

That's why I find it odd that they haven't sent some Bradleys over there. They've got thousands of them mostly just sitting around, and they're the same platform as the M270 MLRS that Ukraine is already using.

Bradleys are on the way.

[timun]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I talked with a MAGA American on the weekend.

Oh god, why? Ugh... *shudder*

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by karl262

The posters statement was that he did not support sending deadly weapons to Ukraine.

Not sure which posts you think I'm referring to, but these are the ones I'm talking about, and he was accused of pushing a pro-Russian slant for the first post.

Originally Posted by Playfair

So what is happening in Ukraine? I read that corruption is a huge issue.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64401190

It is hard to get a fair honest read on everything that is happening. I saw a news segment where they said that Ukraine isn't doing that well, and I suppose that is fair in some areas. But I guess as battles go there is always back and forth. To get unbiased news is very difficult from my limited efforts anyways.

Hopefully this thing is resolved sooner then later. It is so sad that innocent people get thrown into political agendas regardless of who is right or wrong if you understand my thoughts there. The little guy always gets crushed by those who rule.

Originally Posted by Playfair

No I am not against that at all! In fact, the reality that they are facing it rather than denying it shows their desire to stand in integrity. That must be very difficult in a war environment.



Wow. That is quite the judgement! I am by no means pro Russian. I want Ukraine to kick butt, frankly! So you be wrong! Russia started it and acts the victim. They should be expelled because they shouldn't have gone in in the first place. All I mean is that there are slants on both sides and the truth is somewhere in the middle. I used to work in journalism and if you are reporting on one side and neglect the other side, you lose that part of the story that is important even if the other side is wrong. The truth is far broader than we can see. I hope that makes sense. Russia is doing terrible, evil things in Ukraine there is no mistaking that. I just think there is so much more going on then what we hear and see if that makes sense.

[marsplasticeraser]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I talked with a MAGA American on the weekend. In addition to defending Trump's classified documents fiasco he also said he "doesn't blame Putin or Russia" for invading Ukraine. NATO is expanding into Putin's back yard, so he had to do something (this coming from a citizen of a country that enjoys NATO protection). He thinks sending the Abrams is not a good idea.

His analogy to try explaining the geopolitics to this obviously ignorant Canadian was to suggest "America would do the same if Russia began to set up bio labs and military bases in Canada".

My response was why haven't they invaded Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia who are literally NATO members on their doorstep? Of course, no response.

I stopped expecting rationality from MAGAs and QAnons when a MAGA Q argued extensively that the US civil war had no relation to slavery.

It’s impossible to have a discussion when you’re living a completely different reality from somebody else, so why even bother.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by opendoor

That's why I find it odd that they haven't sent some Bradleys over there. They've got thousands of them mostly just sitting around, and they're the same platform as the M270 MLRS that Ukraine is already using.

Well they are going now, but I think they were stuck because of the want to only send "defensive weapons".

Best defense is a good offense.

[CroFlames]

Every weapon is a defensive weapon. They are defending Ukraine from invasion.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Every weapon is a defensive weapon. They are defending Ukraine from invasion.

Every Weapon is an Offensive Weapon.

Close with and Destroy the Enemy

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

With a weapons system like Abrams it isn't the operators' training (which is difficult), but the maintenance and supple chain.

Remember this is a thirsty tank that drinks jet fuel.

Getting tanks to Ukraine and in the hands of tankers is the small part, the logistics of upkeep is the big part.

The American's are using jet fuel, but the M1A2 is still powered by a multifuel engine. Diesel, Gas Marine Diesel and Jet fuel can all be used.

The disadvantage is that the Abrahms isn't exactly a hyundai when it comes to fuel efficiency.

[Zulu29]

Maybe the Ukrainians would want our CF18’s…..ok probably not.