We Are Failing Our Youth

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

With this moron who did the shootings in VT, I blame his parents, he either didn't communicate his depression with him, which means they didn't set up a line of communication with him, or they didn't see the signs.

I blame his fellow students, this kid was writing these bloody awful murder fantasies, and was obviously depressed and nobody intervened.

I blame his teachers and professors, they even said it, they were scared he would snap. Why the hell was he still at the school.

Society failed the victims in this event, and as liberal as it sounds coming from a hawk like me, the shooter to an extent was a victim.

.

There were actually people stepping forward and warning about this particular individual, including teachers.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

And there's more . . . . police involvement with this individual:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/

In all honesty, I would think it would be more likely in the 1950's that an individual like this would exist without comment or help than it would be in today's society.

Cowperson

[FireFly]

I agree that we are failing our youth, and I agree that there is a lack of 'structure' to society that perhaps we want/need. Whether it's conservative or not in nature is, IMO, irrelevant. There just needs to be structure. For those of you that are parents, if you've ever dealt with unruly children, you'd probably notice an immediate difference in their behaviour when they're put into a routine. When their life is given structure. Humans need that structure.

In addition, IMO, people just doesn't care about others anymore. In the 1950s, everyone knew everything in your town. Now, instead of knowing our neighbours, we know movie stars and athletes and other famous people. We don't care about those who should matter to us anymore. Neighbourhoods are as close knit, people keep to themselves, and when we see others in trouble, we look away instead of helping. The sad part about this is that this applies to our families as well! We see family members in trouble, and instead of giving them the tough love they need, we enable them!

Anyways, that's my uneducated opinion on the matter.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

In all honesty, I would think it would be more likely in the 1950's that an individual like this would exist without comment or help than it would be in today's society.

Cowperson

I don't believe that. As per my previous post, (sorry I didn't read everything before replying,) in the 50s, your entire neighbourhood knew who you were and what you were doing and cared enough to rat you out when you needed to be ratted on.

Originally Posted by fotze

Why do people think that parents were on the whole better back then? What facts support that claim. TV isn't the only thing that allows a parent to be neglectful, its just another thing. From my limited scope of experience my parents parents were definately much worse parents than my own. Fathers dad was a coal miner which is a horrible job, beat his son and forced him into hockey to "save the family" pretty much meaning he would escape at his first opportunity which he did and barely spoke to him the rest of his life.

My mom went to catholic school and that is where the child abuse comes in. Bitter evil nuns beating and hitting the kids with sticks. Imagine if that happened today? If a teacher/supervisor ever hit my kid, they'd be eating with their arsehole. Talking to your parents back then about anything deeper than what will be for dinner seemed not very common as well.

Sure there is bad stuff today, but it certainly wasn't rosie. I would take todays world over that in a second.

Again, same thing. It was a time where children were raised by committee... the entire neighbourhood looked out for you. Certainly, there were bad parents then as there are today. (Although I would suggest it's going the opposite way... that worst parents today are the ones who let their kids run rampant whereas in the 50s it was ripe with child abuse.) But some of that was at least offset by the fact that there were others around who would help you. As a child, you could go next door for help, whereas today, the neighbours are likely strangers. But again, that's just my opinion.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I don't believe that. As per my previous post, (sorry I didn't read everything before replying,) in the 50s, your entire neighbourhood knew who you were and what you were doing and cared enough to rat you out when you needed to be ratted on.

I don't agree with that. People may have known, but I don't think it was "polite" to say or do anything about it. I think there was far less "ratting" since it was viewed as private business.

[Burninator]

Interesting article at the first read. However after thinking about it there was a lot wrong with it. First off is that this person is a teenager who has no idea what the 1950's were like. I am young, do I know what the 50's were like? No. This person (and me) clearly has a biased view of the 50's family. It's the picked white fence family. White all American blonde family with the book smart daughter, quarter back son, good looking wife that tends to the house and the husband that works at the office and drives a Chevy. Everything is peachy, everyone gets along, oh except for the whole "black" thing, but we'll leave that out. I don't beleive that the fifties was this fairy tale of the family.

I am sure if this teenager was alive in the 50's he(she) would have thought America was going to hell in a hand basket, and the 1900's, well that's was when life was good and America was true Conservative. This is a great example of "grass is always greener on the other side" mentality. Or the stereotypical grump old man "back in my day we didn't have (insert societal problem), people were tough...and people had their place...and women were in the kitchen and..etc." So I am not buying that part of the argument.

I do agree that the video games, music and movies are not causing the problem, but are a representation of the society to some degree. But not to get hung up on the liberal/conservative argument too much, although the article seems to hinge on it. Why would conservative be safer? I am sure they are examples on both sides. But looking at the Scandinavian countries who are fairly liberal in comparison to North America, they seem to be doing fine. They have their problems, but in comparison, they must be smaller.

I truly think that American society is having a lot of problems. But the problems are made into catastrophes by the news and everyone else. They are hyped up beyond any reasonable point. Everything is dwelled upon to such a finite degree that problems seem to manufactured from all this. Just the culture of that I think is a large problem. My outsider perspective on American is that they have been told to be scared of everything. Everything is a war on (problem). The attitude seems reactionary at times, a reaction to the extremes.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

I don't agree with that. People may have known, but I don't think it was "polite" to say or do anything about it. I think there was far less "ratting" since it was viewed as private business.

Perhaps ratting is not the right word. The community would discuss the situation and act on it. With or without the knowledge of the parents of the child in question. For example, the community would know if a kid's daddy spent all their money on booze, and would help feed the child at school... or whatever. A kid knew that if he or she did anything wrong, everyone would know it was him or her that did it soon enough. You tend to stay out of trouble if you know you'll get busted eventually.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Burninator

I truly think that American society is having a lot of problems. But the problems are made into catastrophes by the news and everyone else. They are hyped up beyond any reasonable point. Everything is dwelled upon to such a finite degree that problems seem to manufactured from all this. Just the culture of that I think is a large problem. My outsider perspective on American is that they have been told to be scared of everything. Everything is a war on (problem). The attitude seems reactionary at times, a reaction to the extremes.

In the 1950's, the American military industrial complex was three times the size it is today as a percentage of GDP . . . . Eisenhower would be quite pleased at the reduction.

Your school children were practicing hiding under their desks to escape a nuclear bomb . . . . . and they were warned of the assault on morals by the likes of Elvis Presley.

Sex was a sin and an unwanted pregnancy was a thing to take care of with a coat hanger instead of going to a real doctor because of the shame brought on yourself and your family.

The McCarthy Era was running rampant, with Godless Communists seemingly everywhere.

If anything, paranoia is significantly less today than it was in the 1950's . . . . and the very nature of being "conservative" was being reinforced far more forcibly then by churches and government than it is today.

Not sure why people would pine for a time like the 1950's . . . . although, coming out of WWII, it was certainly a period of vast economic expansion and vast hope.

Yet it also yielded the Protest Generation which attempted to break free of those same conservative shackles.

"Trust no one over 30" was aimed at the leaders of the 1950's.

Cowperson

[RougeUnderoos]

We are seeing a lot of "in the 50's things were like this...". How many posters on this board were actually alive in the 50's?

My perception of the 50's is based on three things -- "Back To The Future", "The Outsiders" and what older people have told me. Obviously the movies aren't a proper representation. "What older people say" about that time is definitely not all smiles and sunshine. Sure, maybe in some places and in some neighbourhoods they knew everybody's business, but all I've ever heard was what they knew was who was a drunk, who beat their kids, who cheated on their wives, who was broke, why Mary-Ellen went away for a year. And nobody did anything about it.

It wasn't like Bob from down the street came over to talk to Peggy-Sue's dad because down at the lumberyard he overheard she was failing typing class.

The author of the paper was born in 1981. Her parents were probably born in about 1955. Any impression she has of that decade comes from the movies.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

We are seeing a lot of "in the 50's things were like this...". How many posters on this board were actually alive in the 50's?

.

mooooo

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The author of the paper was born in 1981. Her parents were probably born in about 1955. Any impression she has of that decade comes from the movies.

The author would've actually been born in 1988 or 89. And you're right. I've never lived in the 50s but my parents did, and they discuss what their childhood was like. Surprisingly similar in the community aspect even though very different in the family aspect.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by FireFly

The author would've actually been born in 1988 or 89. And you're right. I've never lived in the 50s but my parents did, and they discuss what their childhood was like. Surprisingly similar in the community aspect even though very different in the family aspect.

I think that article was written right after the Columbine shootings and during the NATO action in Serbia, which makes her 18 in 1999.

I too have heard my parents talk about their childhoods in the 50's and I wouldn't swap with either of them even though on one side, things were actually like a Norman Rockwell painting.

Oh yeah I forgot to name the Beach Boys as an influence on my perception of that time.

[BlackEleven]

I don't think you can blame a Culture of Death, as she calls it. And any Culture of Death certainly can't be blamed on Liberals. The hypocracy of calling out Clinton for the Serbian bombings while not mentioning the Bush invasions of Afganinstan and Iraq, which have caused way more death and destruction, is astounding. Moreover, the United States is one of the most conservative first-world nations in the world, yet they seem to suffer from the most school shootings. If Liberals and feminists were the cause, would not liberal-paradises like Scandinavia be awash in school shootings?

As for the Culture of Death, it seems to me what leads to the shooters lust for violence is extreme loneliness as a result of being ostrasized by their peers. It seems to me like these people feel tormented and have no friends or family that are willing to listen and, slowly, develop a taste for violence (through video games or music or something else) were they can fantasize about revenge on what they see as their tormentors.

If anything, I feel we should examine what elements in society lead to kids being ostrasized by their peers and, more importantly, why they don't express their frustration and anger through proper channels, such as families that are willing to listen. There were always be kids that are singled out by others for bullying or taunting or teasing or whatever you want to call it, and this exists pretty well in all societies across the board, but it seems what pushes someone over the edge is when they don't have a healthy way of dealing with the anger and frustation that arises from his/her situation.

I think, in part what leads to these communication channels being blocked is the growing culture of mass-consumerism that's forcing people to work long hours to make money to buy things they don't really need causing parents to be unavailble to their kids. I also think its due in parts to parents being lazy and not taking an interest in the lives of the children, assuming that everything is fine when its really not. If I were a parent, I would certainly be concerened if my kid was playing video games in the basement non-stop and didn't seem to have many, if any, friends. I think many parents think this behaviour is normal in this day and age and assuming their kid is just acting like a normal teenager.

I'm certainly not saying these are the only factors, but I certainly think they are strong contributors. And I think a lot of these types of problems could be avoided if both the parents and the children realized the importance of communication with one another.

[FireFly]

Oh, I see. I suppose that makes sense then. I wouldn't swap my childhood with my parent's either, but then I wouldn't want to be a child today, either, even though my neices seem to be well adjusted, etc. We also don't live in the US, and don't deal with the same society... However, I know that when I was in school, I certainly wasn't pressured into being in a gang, nor were there any gangs in my school. Now there are. It's a different society than it was even 10-15 years ago.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

In the 1950's, the American military industrial complex was three times the size it is today as a percentage of GDP . . . . Eisenhower would be quite pleased at the reduction.

Your school children were practicing hiding under their desks to escape a nuclear bomb . . . . . and they were warned of the assault on morals by the likes of Elvis Presley.

Sex was a sin and an unwanted pregnancy was a thing to take care of with a coat hanger instead of going to a real doctor because of the shame brought on yourself and your family.

The McCarthy Era was running rampant, with Godless Communists seemingly everywhere.

If anything, paranoia is significantly less today than it was in the 1950's . . . . and the very nature of being "conservative" was being reinforced far more forcibly then by churches and government than it is today.

Not sure why people would pine for a time like the 1950's . . . . although, coming out of WWII, it was certainly a period of vast economic expansion and vast hope.

Yet it also yielded the Protest Generation which attempted to break free of those same conservative shackles.

"Trust no one over 30" was aimed at the leaders of the 1950's.

Cowperson

True. But I should have elaborated that America's enemy today is almost an invisible one. It was easy to put a face on everything war related back in the day. Just point to one of those countries. You can't put a face on the war on drugs. They've put a face on the War of Terror (Bin Laden) but that got all mixed up with Iraq and Saddam Hussein so it's almost a moot point. The paranoia of terrorism I would say is pretty high. See now obviously I wasn't alive in the 1950's so I have no idea what the life was like, nor did I claim to. It was just merely my take on American today as I see it. Perhaps the government manufactured the propaganda in that time, but I would argue that today it's the 24 hour news stations are that are making the propaganda.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Oh, I see. I suppose that makes sense then. I wouldn't swap my childhood with my parent's either, but then I wouldn't want to be a child today, either, even though my neices seem to be well adjusted, etc. We also don't live in the US, and don't deal with the same society... However, I know that when I was in school, I certainly wasn't pressured into being in a gang, nor were there any gangs in my school. Now there are. It's a different society than it was even 10-15 years ago.

The Jets and the Sharks man!!!

(I'll be sad if I have to explain that reference to you.)

Cowperson

[FireFly]

As a side note, but perhaps related to all this, is a book called "Fire and Ice: The United States, Canada and the Myth of Converging Values" by Michael Adams. It was a text that I read in a comparative culture class and it speaks directly to what BlackEleven is talking about, in regards to the US anyways. It's hard for Canadians to have a proper view of American society even though we watch it all the time. The myth is that we're actually becoming more like Americans in our values, when in fact, we're getting further away from them. So it's hard for us to understand why they are the way they are... we just don't think like them.

Here's a link to a short version of the survey he did...

http://fireandice.environics.net/sur...asp?surveyID=1

It's still fairly long though if you want to take it. Gives rather interesting results.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

The Jets and the Sharks man!!!

(I'll be sad if I have to explain that reference to you.)

Cowperson

Prepare to be sad then.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

The Jets and the Sharks man!!!

(I'll be sad if I have to explain that reference to you.)

Cowperson

oh I get you...Teemu Selanne

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Prepare to be sad then.

Dance over to the WEST SIDE and listen to cowperson's STORY.

(although the discussion is the '50s and cow pulls a reference to a '61 movie)

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by looooob

oh I get you...Teemu Selanne

Teemu Selanne & Jonathan Vilma (not that there's anything wrong with that </Seinfeld>)