getting a little tired of the crack/meth heads

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by stone hands

How much harder do you imagine it to be to stop using hard drugs if you live on the street vs have a stable place to rest your head

Housing comes first, addiction comes second

If that were the case, why are people starting out in a house and ending up on the streets? It goes addiction then homelessness; not the other way around.

And for the love of peter12, I don't want them to be on the street. They need to be in an institution to get help and get clean. This whole entire topic is about not wanting junkies on the street and wanting to find a way to get them off and help them. How can that be lost on you?

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by Sliver

If that were the case, why are people starting out in a house and ending up on the streets? It goes addiction then homelessness; not the other way around.

And for the love of peter12, I don't want them to be on the street. They need to be in an institution to get help and get clean. This whole entire topic is about not wanting junkies on the street and wanting to find a way to get them off and help them. How can that be lost on you?

That isn't always the case though! Drug use can increase when you're homeless because it's how you cope.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

Step 0 - Mandatory 20-year minimum sentence for dealing schedule 1 drugs. 40-years for distribution. Hard ass prison labor with the rapists and peodphiles.

Well...thats 'War on Drugs' policy that has been conclusively proven to be, at best, 100% completely ineffective and considerably counter-productive.

One of the heaviest-handed Law Enforcement nations on the face of the Earth tried it for decades and not only lost but seems to have more than exacerbated the problem.

One major reason is because the skill-set required to sell drugs.

Its actually not that hard, almost any idiot can do it and the world is chock full o' idiots. The drugs almost sell themselves.

You incarcerate one idiot for selling drugs and 3 more pop up to take his place while you've subsequently ruined that person's family and ability to operate within society and the laundry list of knock-on effects just goes on and on and on.

Heavy-handed sentencing is essentially just playing whack-a-mole.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

That isn't always the case though! Drug use can increase when you're homeless because it's how you cope.

Yeah, I suppose it's called a downward spiral for a reason.

[stone hands]

I dont understand the premise of your question. They are homeless because they cant afford their rent/mortgage anymore due to drug addiction. Kicking an addiction is exponentially harder while homeless

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Locke

Well...thats 'War on Drugs' policy that has been conclusively proven to be, at best, 100% completely ineffective and considerably counter-productive.

One of the heaviest-handed Law Enforcement nations on the face of the Earth tried it for decades and not only lost but seems to have more than exacerbated the problem.

One major reason is because the skill-set required to sell drugs.

Its actually not that hard, almost any idiot can do it and the world is chock full o' idiots. The drugs almost sell themselves.

You incarcerate one idiot for selling drugs and 3 more pop up to take his place while you've subsequently ruined that person's family and ability to operate within society and the laundry list of knock-on effects just goes on and on and on.

Heavy-handed sentencing is essentially just playing whack-a-mole.

So we shoot them. (I kid).

I am all for the decriminalizing drugs for possession. Nobody should go to jail for being sad or desperate enough to use for themselves. But profiteering on other people's suffering and destruction is beyond evil. I had no moral issue selling someone weed. I couldn't imagine selling someone something I know is destroying their life.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

seriously. This is how you want to solve the problem with crime? Even petty crime?
I'm too disgusted with your idea to actually sit here and formulate a long response. forget helping people, let's just whip them?

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't your dream punishment also combined with prison? And isn't it also not given to people over 50 due to the severity of the torture?
Also, if caning is so awesome, why don't they cane women?

A lot of the people who are drugged out and have these type of serious addictions go through the legal system with massive rap sheets. Very very violent offenses that have serious consequences for the victims and their families.

The issue with a lot of people, and some we see with the post's here, is that well, it's somebody else's problem. This isn't great but hopefully these people get the help they deserve.

The people in charge, being the politicians at all levels, the courts and law enforcement have a duty to keep us safe. It's their responsibility, it's part of their job. A lot of people have just given up but the consequences are real.

My brother is a downtown cop and he can point the scum one by one just driving by. There is Joe Blow, walking around, harassing people. His rap sheet includes murder (pleaded down) assaults ( victim blind) sexual assaults ( teenage girl) (bitten off finger) and on and on and on.

Than we have the usual suspects who push people off LRT platforms who paralyze people https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/calgar...says-1.4172886

#1 client of the police and court system who's rap sheet is so long, the media doesn't bother printing out the full details for fear it may bring down their internal computer system.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/crime...harge-surfaces

We literally have so many daily victims by the the same people over and over again. What we don't talk about is the fear that a lot of people feel as well without being victims technically. The lack of feeling safe on public transit, walking around, at work, being harassed at work. Fear of going places for day to day life like shopping, appointments etc.

I've said it before and I will say it again, this problem doesn't exist to the same extent in a lot of large cities in other countries. It just doesn't. We've normalized it. Now, if some people need to be made an example of it, than so be it. Get the message across that you don't mess around and lot's of people will fall in line.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by stone hands

How much harder do you imagine it to be to stop using hard drugs if you live on the street vs have a stable place to rest your head

Housing comes first, addiction comes second

Is the success rate for getting clean from addiction outside of a specialized medical treatment facility high enough though? I don’t think providing housing and addiction counseling separately is strong enough for the needs of the majority. Sure it’s helpful for a certain amount of people but I don’t see it working for the majority.

For some, being removed from their support group is a negative but with most, being removed from their toxic environment and fellow addicted is what they really need to get clean. Provide the housing after so they can maintain normalcy, not to try to attain it.

There also needs to be just as much focus on services/supports for those that are millimetres away from being homeless or you’re just drying up flood water while the broken pipe is still flowing. Fix the pipe.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by stone hands

I dont understand the premise of your question. They are homeless because they cant afford their rent/mortgage anymore due to drug addiction. Kicking an addiction is exponentially harder while homeless

Yeah, I've explained it super clearly in multiple posts so I'll just leave it with you.

[Julio]

Just in case folks don't know, here is an organization that is working on this issue. They work with partner agencies to house 'vulnerable Calgarians', some (but not all) of whom are dealing with substance issues. Usually, there are other services provided by those partner agencies, depending on the needs of those that are being housed.

https://www.homespace.org/about

Now by no means is this a perfect solution that will result in a utopia. I live across the street from one of their buildings, and for sure there are some challenges. We see EMS quite a bit, and there has been a few issues over the years, usually not with the residents, but with folks that were a part of the residents former lives.

I am posting to let people know that there are agencies trying to get folks 'off the streets', and get them the help they need.

[stone hands]

So we are on the same page, youre saying they once had a home pre addiction, got addicted to drugs and lost their home, so that's proof they dont need housing before addressing addiction? That's my understanding of your point anyways, please feel free to ecludiate me if I'm misinterpreting you

Can you answer the question in the original post that you quoted, ie how much harder would it be to get sober while homeless vs having a place to live

I dont get what's so hard to understand about the fact that trying to get clean when you live underneath a bridge by the river is exponentially harder than trying to get sober with a predictable living situation. If our goal is to get people clean,we need to give them a place to live as a baseline before anything else because that lifestyle naturally leads itself towards maintaining the drug addict status quo. If you have nothing to live for, no place to stay, why WOULDNT you just do drugs to numb yourself from your awful existence

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Fear is absolutely a deterrent and to think otherwise runs counter to everything science suggests about what motivates human beings. You need carrots and sticks. Not just one or the other.

Does the fear of incarceration prevent more crimes? I would assume, yes.

Do countries with heavier penalties for individual offences see less crime in that area? I assume, no.

Does a drug addict who is homeless fear incarceration? I doubt it. Do they fear getting beat half-to-death by a cop? probably not while they are on drugs

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Probably because many don't like the inevitable answer that any effective solution will require people to be detained in some fashion and removed from these places when conducting this behavior whether that be the police, mental health personnel, addictions treatment personnel . . . whoever. There's no end game solution to these problems that don't have this level of intervention at the very end of the flow chart regardless of how many offshoots and steps we take between.

I don't think detention or restraint is considered unacceptable in most peoples minds; however, I don't think people realize the actual cost of these types of initiatives. As PepsiFree eloquently pointed out, we as a society just implement half measures and expect it to go away.

a lot of people i talk to about this issue want to throw drug addicts in prison or a mental health center with the intent on removing the problem from their view. But the sheer cost of policing, hospitalization, and incarceration is not something a majority of people support (the "tough on crime" crowd and the "no new taxes" crowd go hand-in-hand)

It's probably cheaper as a society to house/supply/treat these individuals. But this is a conversation many people don't want to consider.

Originally Posted by curves2000

I've said it before and I will say it again, this problem doesn't exist to the same extent in a lot of large cities in other countries. It just doesn't. We've normalized it. Now, if some people need to be made an example of it, than so be it. Get the message across that you don't mess around and lot's of people will fall in line.

name the countries. Many countries have an assortment of programs and other tools that they use to limit the problem outside of "having people fall in line"

Go to Amsterdam and find the homeless people / drug addicts on the street. have they used intimidation tactics?

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by curves2000

A lot of the people who are drugged out and have these type of serious addictions go through the legal system with massive rap sheets. Very very violent offenses that have serious consequences for the victims and their families.

The issue with a lot of people, and some we see with the post's here, is that well, it's somebody else's problem. This isn't great but hopefully these people get the help they deserve.

The people in charge, being the politicians at all levels, the courts and law enforcement have a duty to keep us safe. It's their responsibility, it's part of their job. A lot of people have just given up but the consequences are real.

My brother is a downtown cop and he can point the scum one by one just driving by. There is Joe Blow, walking around, harassing people. His rap sheet includes murder (pleaded down) assaults ( victim blind) sexual assaults ( teenage girl) (bitten off finger) and on and on and on.

Than we have the usual suspects who push people off LRT platforms who paralyze people https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/calgar...says-1.4172886

#1 client of the police and court system who's rap sheet is so long, the media doesn't bother printing out the full details for fear it may bring down their internal computer system.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/crime...harge-surfaces

We literally have so many daily victims by the the same people over and over again. What we don't talk about is the fear that a lot of people feel as well without being victims technically. The lack of feeling safe on public transit, walking around, at work, being harassed at work. Fear of going places for day to day life like shopping, appointments etc.

I've said it before and I will say it again, this problem doesn't exist to the same extent in a lot of large cities in other countries. It just doesn't. We've normalized it. Now, if some people need to be made an example of it, than so be it. Get the message across that you don't mess around and lot's of people will fall in line.

What cities have you been to? Doesn’t sound like you’ve visited any major cities to be able to make that claim.

[curves2000]

We all know that drugs is an issue, everywhere. Every country has citizens who have addiction issues and the associated problems with it. Our issue in Canada and the USA is how expansive it is and just how large of a problem it's become. As I have said, we have normalized it.

I am not the expert on policy or specific statistics but in a lot of Asian and Middle Easter culture, drug use and drug abuse and the associated problems are vastly limited.

Cities/countries with very low use and abuse/problems I am aware of include

Tokyo, Japan, Singapore, Zurich, Athens, Thessaloniki, Prague, Frankfurt, Seoul and a lot more.

There are differences to drug use and drug related crime on the street. We know we have an issue with crack and meth etc but we don't have any issue with office workers who do cocaine and proceed to assault ,rape, paralyze people on the street. I don't condone or do drugs but the problems are usually different.

In Japan, the culture of drugs is that they almost ruin you professionally because of the stigma.

In Middle Eastern cultures they will just take justice out on you in the form of a beating and more. You don't have mountains of meth heads running around raping girls and attacking random people on the street.

We have people on the west coast of Canada and the US who literally are leaving their cars unlocked so that they don't need to deal with broken windows cause there is such a high degree of certainty the car will be opened looking for valuables.

I have traveled a lot in my life but the places where the drug addiction and the associated problems are always highest is in Canada and the USA.

[Wormius]

“Mountains of meth heads running around raping girls“. Well, I guess you’ve nailed Calgary.

[Yeah_Baby]

Jesus ####ing Christ.

[Regulator75]

Couple quick proposals:
Setup a massive Running Man style gameshow or Truman show sized dome?
Similar to Big Brother, they have can either try and get sober or be tempted by "prizes". Thousands of contestants, cameras, staff and challenges.

or

Ultimate Junkie Championship?
City vs City, addiction vs addiction, no genders, no weight classes,
1 VS 1, 5 VS 5, 100 vs 100!

To the death!

Profit?!

[Leeman4Gilmour]

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/s...g-use-disorder

Other than the US, we could improve by modelling our programs off of essentially anyone and improve. But, it seems rather clear this is cultural issue and I tend to agree part of that is too much compassion as a society. My teenage daughter has called 911 twice for people overdosing at the train station (commuting to and from school, not 1 am). Whatever we're doing now isn't working. It's hard to get on board with doing more of it. Portugese model, sure. Mexican, German, Yemanese, why not. What we did 25 years ago when I didn't even see the presence of drugs at public places yet alone have to routinely call 911, give it to me. Like I said, pretty much everyone is doing better than where we are today. What's Australia doing? If you slide the scale in that graph above, they seem to have the largest improvement with "drug use disorder" in the last 20 years than most. Agree with OP 100%

[JohnnyB]

The West Coast, both Canada and the US, is pretty shocking. It definitely is not a universal condition of big cities. It's notably bad in a global context.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by stone hands

So we are on the same page, youre saying they once had a home pre addiction, got addicted to drugs and lost their home, so that's proof they dont need housing before addressing addiction? That's my understanding of your point anyways, please feel free to ecludiate me if I'm misinterpreting you

Can you answer the question in the original post that you quoted, ie how much harder would it be to get sober while homeless vs having a place to live

I dont get what's so hard to understand about the fact that trying to get clean when you live underneath a bridge by the river is exponentially harder than trying to get sober with a predictable living situation. If our goal is to get people clean,we need to give them a place to live as a baseline before anything else because that lifestyle naturally leads itself towards maintaining the drug addict status quo. If you have nothing to live for, no place to stay, why WOULDNT you just do drugs to numb yourself from your awful existence

Support from family is a major issue too.

I know of a few lawyers who've had major addiction issues. They all ended up broke. They had a career that provided them with counselling and various other programs. They also had family, that if it came down to it, would pay their rent.

Many of the people on the streets come from abusive and/or poor homes. It's also a totally different scenario, if you're, for example, a labourer who misses a few shifts or shows up intoxicated to work. In that scenario, they just boot you out the door.

To comment on your post, just giving addicts a place to live without other support measures in place comes with its own set of problems. Many addicts have severe sanitary, health, and behavioral issues. Just cramming a bunch of people into public housing can result in serious acts of violence, unsanitary conditions, people being preyed upon, etc...So just building housing in small towns that nobody else wants to live in is probably not a viable solution.