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Old 01-24-2023, 04:42 PM   #21
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The thing about the Portugal example that's often left out is the compulsory treatment that accompanied decriminalization. Yes, you don't get criminally charged with drug possession, but it's also not just some free for all. You have to report for treatment, there are drug tests, and you can be locked up (not in prison, but in a treatment facility) for failure to comply.

Our approach of just letting crackheads roam free to cause chaos while simultaneously increasing the availability of drugs is the worst of both worlds; and I say that as someone that thinks recreational drug use should generally be legal.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/05/u...treatment.html
Yeah...I have mentioned to people in Vancouver that decriminalizing personal-use amounts of drugs isnt 'just like Portugal' and is likely not going to be the Magic Bullet they think its going to be.
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Old 01-24-2023, 04:50 PM   #22
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Yeah...I have mentioned to people in Vancouver that decriminalizing personal-use amounts of drugs isnt 'just like Portugal' and is likely not going to be the Magic Bullet they think its going to be.
For most drug addicts, possession for personal use is more or less decriminalized already. People are openly smoking and shooting up drugs on the streets in Vancouver.

I think decriminalization is great, but it clearly has to be done in conjunction with other programs. There's also a lot of economic factors at play here too. For example, if you have a housing shortage, by definition, you will have people short of housing and on the streets.
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Old 01-24-2023, 04:50 PM   #23
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Hey, sorry, but do you have any actual ideas?
Just the typical bullsh-t aimed at anyone who dares to take issue with drug-addicted vagrants making life miserable for the rest of us. Clearly you're just a heartless f--k like me.

CBC wrote an article on Calgary Transit becoming a nightmare:

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In response to: I saw three overdoses on one CTrain ride. How about you?

"Several harm reduction advocates and journalists criticized CBC for being surprised and for not having the reporter carry Narcan, a nasal spray version of the opioid antidote naloxone, saying she should expect to see an overdose on transit and be prepared to reverse it herself."

Source: What we heard: Vomit, drug use and harassment scare riders from CTrain. But could a crackdown cost lives?
I said this elsewhere: I thought I did my part by, y'know, not becoming dependent on substances myself, voting for politicians who are compassionate to these types of social issues, and paying my taxes so that the government can run programs to help these people.

If -- despite all this -- I'm expected to still put up with this sh-t and be the guy administering the f--king anti-OD drugs, sorry, the line in the sand has been drawn. The public will eventually grow weary of being told we're not doing enough when the people being paid to do something are doing nothing. The "indifference disguised as compassion" from governments needs to stop.


I want these people to get help. This is not an entirely altruistic desire, because if they get help then my quality of life will improve too because as it stands, they're making it worse.
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Old 01-24-2023, 04:56 PM   #24
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Except the criminalization of drugs is not the current problem. These addicts are not being arrested en masse and filling the prison cells, they are casually using and wondering the streets all meth'd up. They will commit minor crimes and thefts and if caught, be released to do it all over again.
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Old 01-24-2023, 05:02 PM   #25
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I'm sure somebody who has knowledge will be able to explain why my idea is terrible, but I think we find a region that is down on their luck.

Go and revitalize region with the biggest mental health campus in Canada.

There are two parts to this campus:

Side 1 has free drugs, free alcohol, free places to sleep, and police to keep some sort of order. With free drugs there is really no need for violence, robbery, prostitution, etc. People can just get as high as they want and not have to worry about the negative impacts on others of their actions.

Side 2 has an abundance of health care workers that specialize in safe living, sobriety, etc. The goal is that people can make the decision to get clean and have a small city that is entirely committed to getting them clean.

It seems mostly benefits for all:
1. Region gets a huge economic boom with construction and jobs.

2. Addicts get safe consumption, reduction to personal harm, and a way to get clean. Furthermore fewer addicts once they return to society.

3. Cities and towns across canada get rid of the negative behaviour associated with drug taking. Less crime, less violence.

4. Social workers get good jobs in low-cost places. It's hard to live in Vancouver, toronto, Calgary at $45k per year, but I'm sure there are some beautiful towns that $45k would get a nice home. Heck 2 hrs south of CAlgary $45k goes a long way.

5. Govt gets a program that offers economies of scale and I'd guess more likely for addicts to succeed in getting off of drugs. Furthermore reduces crime nationwide and liklihood for people not using drugs to take them up.

anyways, I know nothing of this problem, but it just seems a way out of this mess. What we are doing in Canada (and what i've seen in other countries) doesn't seem to be working and the problem is only getting worse as other countries flood us with low cost opiods.
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Old 01-24-2023, 05:07 PM   #26
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Criminal defence lawyer here. Meth isn't going anywhere. It's super cheap and keeps you high for a while. It's also pretty addictive.

10 years ago most of my clients committed offences while drunk or maybe occasionally on cocaine. Now, it's 95% meth.

More and more people in our society are falling into poverty and homelessness and then getting hooked on that drug. It's widely available and dirt cheap. Increasing jail sentences for dealers won't have any deterrent effect, either. Someone will just take their place when they go to jail.

Lots of U.S cities have had this meth issue long before it came to Canada. None of them have been able to figure out how to stop it.

From a naked guy stealing an ambulance driving down the wrong side of the street to a guy who thinks he's spider man climbing up your garage door are just the tip of the iceberg.

The only way to reduce this is to change as a society to a Scandinavian-style social safety net system with greatly increased taxes. Even then, it would take generations. Ain't gonna happen.
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Old 01-24-2023, 05:09 PM   #27
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Hey, sorry, but do you have any actual ideas?
Sorry, I was just playing off of how historically some of your diatribe plays out in other scenarios (ie. dogs, wildlife, etc.).

I do not believe its a coincidence that we are experiencing an acceleration of problems coming out of this pandemic. Thats likely for two reasons:

1) Mental health issued accelerated for some folks as a result of isolation and drastic changes to how we effectively functioned as a society for the past 80 years to fully locking down. Some people really suffered and a symptom of that viscous cycle can be drug use.

Solution - throw more money at mental health support, early diagnosis, treatment, and work on reducing stigma associated with getting help. Tailor more public health to cater to the mental side. Many people cannot afford shrinks, etc. - make it more achievable.

2) Poverty. Some people were barely getting by and the pandemic pushed forward and pressured a lot of people. With the CERB, etc. falling off a lot of people got left behind. There was a growing issue with disparity before the pandemic, inflation, interest rates, etc. This is now full blown. More homelessness, less jobs, more reliance on drugs.

Solution - This is a can of worms as many discussions on politics, UCB, etc. But there needs to be a real push to deal with income disparity in this country.

You may be complaining Calgary and how bad it has gotten but my wife and her family are from Vancouver and it is a completely different world downtown these days. Even the nice parts have gotten pretty unsafe and unwalkable past dark. They have a serious crisis on their hands that is trickling out of the typical areas of Gas Town, Rail Town and Hastings.
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Old 01-24-2023, 05:09 PM   #28
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This is a great way to increase revenue. Kenney was a moron for lowering the small business tax rate.
Do we understand that that tax is only profit? Do we even know the difference between revenue and profit?
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Old 01-24-2023, 05:13 PM   #29
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Had a junkie a few weeks ago, while downtown, say to me "if it were 25 years ago I would have punched your lights out". I did nothing to provoke this threat from him, I was just walking down the sidewalk.

How brazen they have become has completely exploded since covid, and it appears all of the enabling we have done recently isn't working. I'm honestly not sure if the answer is to do more for them, or do less.
Was just talking to people about this recently. Yeah I live downtown - well kinda; Beltline - I've been saying this as well. I don't mean simply seeing them, that's kinda normal. More about how aggressive and confrontational they're becoming. If you're with someone you pretty much can't laugh anywhere around them or they automatically assume you're laughing AT them and get all up in your face yelling and trying to start something. It's so insane. Same thing when I'm in Edmonton too.

I travel a fair bit, I've never experienced this anywhere but in Alberta. Anywhere else they just look sad, you feel bad for them. It's the wild west over here apparently, always ready to rumble. It's bonkers, I don't get it. Getting pretty sick of it to be honest, worried it's gonna boil over one of these days, especially if I'm lubricated on 17th and start running my mouth back at em. Who knows what they have on them..
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Old 01-24-2023, 05:15 PM   #30
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Do we understand that that tax is only profit? Do we even know the difference between revenue and profit?
Corporate taxes are revenue to the government, which is what he meant.

Obviously only profits are taxed.
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Old 01-24-2023, 05:16 PM   #31
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Was just talking to people about this recently. Yeah I live downtown - well kinda; Beltline - I've been saying this as well. I don't mean simply seeing them, that's kinda normal. More about how aggressive and confrontational they're becoming. If you're with someone you pretty much can't laugh anywhere around them or they automatically assume you're laughing AT them and get all up in your face yelling and trying to start something. It's so insane. Same thing when I'm in Edmonton too.

I travel a fair bit, I've never experienced this anywhere but in Alberta. Anywhere else they just look sad, you feel bad for them. It's the wild west over here apparently, always ready to rumble. It's bonkers, I don't get it. Getting pretty sick of it to be honest, worried it's gonna boil over one of these days, especially if I'm lubricated on 17th and start running my mouth back at em. Who knows what they have on them..
Come visit the lovely core of Winnipeg. It's meth city here with a meth murder in the news every few days.
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Old 01-24-2023, 05:24 PM   #32
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Old 01-24-2023, 05:25 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14 View Post
Had a junkie a few weeks ago, while downtown, say to me "if it were 25 years ago I would have punched your lights out". I did nothing to provoke this threat from him, I was just walking down the sidewalk.

How brazen they have become has completely exploded since covid, and it appears all of the enabling we have done recently isn't working. I'm honestly not sure if the answer is to do more for them, or do less.
Did he say, “You couldn’t punch your way out of a paper bag?”
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Old 01-24-2023, 05:32 PM   #34
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Yes, drug addicts can be an annoyance. But you can be annoyed and have empathy at the same time.

You have to remember, that 'crackhead' didn't invent crack, most likely comes from a family situation where they were born to lose, and are more of a victim of the drug, than the random passerby's that have to deal with the panhandling and mental illness.

They've broken into cars on our lot, stolen stuff, bathed in our washrooms, and I am usually the one tasked with evicting them. They know they have a problem, they know the world hates them, and I can frikking guarantee you, if they could reverse time, each and every one of them, would have avoided that first hit that got them hooked. I remove them with as much empathy and as much dignity as I can.

I am not particularly PC on most issues. But on this one perhaps my outlook is slightly skewed as I have had friends and family get caught in the grasp of addiction and have lost a few people close to me where it spiralled too far out of control. The only advice I can give, is that in almost every scenario, if you ask them to move along, they will. They usually mean nobody harm, they are just looking for a way to get 10 bucks for that next hit.
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Old 01-24-2023, 05:38 PM   #35
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Do we understand that that tax is only profit? Do we even know the difference between revenue and profit?
Ah, yeah guy, we do. Taxing profits of small businesses increases revenue for the provincial gov't.
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Old 01-24-2023, 05:42 PM   #36
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I've always looked at problems with the question "And then what?"

I mean fine we decriminalize at a possession level, but then what? We just keep giving out free drugs until their health problems over whelm their system and they die?

Like many have mentioned, how do we go from giving out free drugs or letting them do all the drugs they want to getting them into treatment. where's that step? Where's that strategy. All we're doing is creating more problems. Look at the LRT stations and downtown Calgary.

A system where you decrimilize and get people into treatment and not just be ok with continual drug abuse has to happen.

As a side note, I think that drug dealers affiliated to organized crime who's sole purpose is to be parasite who keep people addicted to drugs should get a bullet to the head.
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Old 01-24-2023, 05:49 PM   #37
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Did he say, “You couldn’t punch your way out of a paper bag?”
One dude who I never even looked at or anything got right up in my face and said "wanna see if my bark is as bad as my bite?". He only had one tooth, it took everything I had to not make a crack about it, RE: his bite. He was only about 5'7" too and by himself, and I was with my buddy who's 6'3" and looks rough. Like what is he thinking??

He had these wild eyes and looked like he was twitching. I've noticed most of em I've had encounters with are like that. Is it a new street drug or something that makes you want to fight everybody? I thought that was just whisky..
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Old 01-24-2023, 05:51 PM   #38
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I'm sure somebody who has knowledge will be able to explain why my idea is terrible, but I think we find a region that is down on their luck.

Go and revitalize region with the biggest mental health campus in Canada.

There are two parts to this campus:

Side 1 has free drugs, free alcohol, free places to sleep, and police to keep some sort of order. With free drugs there is really no need for violence, robbery, prostitution, etc. People can just get as high as they want and not have to worry about the negative impacts on others of their actions.

Side 2 has an abundance of health care workers that specialize in safe living, sobriety, etc. The goal is that people can make the decision to get clean and have a small city that is entirely committed to getting them clean.

It seems mostly benefits for all:
1. Region gets a huge economic boom with construction and jobs.

2. Addicts get safe consumption, reduction to personal harm, and a way to get clean. Furthermore fewer addicts once they return to society.

3. Cities and towns across canada get rid of the negative behaviour associated with drug taking. Less crime, less violence.

4. Social workers get good jobs in low-cost places. It's hard to live in Vancouver, toronto, Calgary at $45k per year, but I'm sure there are some beautiful towns that $45k would get a nice home. Heck 2 hrs south of CAlgary $45k goes a long way.

5. Govt gets a program that offers economies of scale and I'd guess more likely for addicts to succeed in getting off of drugs. Furthermore reduces crime nationwide and liklihood for people not using drugs to take them up.

anyways, I know nothing of this problem, but it just seems a way out of this mess. What we are doing in Canada (and what i've seen in other countries) doesn't seem to be working and the problem is only getting worse as other countries flood us with low cost opiods.
Two issues I can think of:

- The cost of providing an all-you-can-hit drug buffet. Some of those compounds are scarce, and then the government becomes liable for the consequences too.

- Removing people from the positive social supports in their lives could make treatment more difficult.
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Old 01-24-2023, 05:55 PM   #39
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Yes, drug addicts can be an annoyance. But you can be annoyed and have empathy at the same time.

You have to remember, that 'crackhead' didn't invent crack, most likely comes from a family situation where they were born to lose, and are more of a victim of the drug, than the random passerby's that have to deal with the panhandling and mental illness.

They've broken into cars on our lot, stolen stuff, bathed in our washrooms, and I am usually the one tasked with evicting them. They know they have a problem, they know the world hates them, and I can frikking guarantee you, if they could reverse time, each and every one of them, would have avoided that first hit that got them hooked. I remove them with as much empathy and as much dignity as I can.

I am not particularly PC on most issues. But on this one perhaps my outlook is slightly skewed as I have had friends and family get caught in the grasp of addiction and have lost a few people close to me where it spiralled too far out of control. The only advice I can give, is that in almost every scenario, if you ask them to move along, they will. They usually mean nobody harm, they are just looking for a way to get 10 bucks for that next hit.
I think you'd have a tough time finding any of us who haven't known people who have been affected by these hard drugs. I've been to two funerals for ODs...one of which was for an immediate family member.

Since reversing time isn't an option and we're - as the sober ones - tasked with wandering around cleaning up their messes and paying for their BS, I'd like a seat at the table when discussing how we fix this and I'm officially done with safe injection sites and all the other crap that doesn't work.

I'm 100% onboard with marsplasticeraser's plan. May have even prevented me from having to dress up for those funerals had there been some place for the people I knew to go.

But yeah, there is harm. These aren't just 'aww shucks I'm just your average joe down on his luck and I'm a nice guy if you just give me a chance' issues. These people are terrorizing our public spaces and I'm sick of it.
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Old 01-24-2023, 06:46 PM   #40
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So the prevailing theory is to snatch, grab and imprison. Isn’t that pretty much what a residential school was? In the modern version we swap the church for the police?

Brilliant ideas morons.
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