Houses being stolen via Title Fraud

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

$25 at least is not that much, and neither is the harm of the use of a spot for the length of a visit to the PNE. Crazy to jump in someone's car like that, but both you and them are victims of some jackass. That old couple is probably dealing with that all the time, which must be upsetting. Or, who knows, maybe they were the fraudsters pretending that they owned the spot haha

In the condo building where one of my friends lives someone had been tracking the empty spaces in the underground parking and selling them for blocks of six months at a time for thousands of dollars, only for some of the people who paid for those spaces to end up with their cars towed when the real owners found out.

I saw the same old couple out there trying to sell parking spaces when I first got there and drove past them before stopping at the next person trying to flag me down. I think they were just pissed that I drove past them and took the next offer.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by nik-

My advice in how to help prevent this would be to live in the property you own. Or at least the same country.

What if it happens to Canadian snowbirds while they're down South in the winter?
They come back to Canada in the Spring and their home has been sold.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I saw the same old couple out there trying to sell parking spaces when I first got there and drove past them before stopping at the next person trying to flag me down. I think they were just pissed that I drove past them and took the next offer.

Would be great if the city could implement a system where people who are the legitimate owners of a space could make their space available for rental. They could derive revenue from their vacant space and the city could take a small percentage for the service. It would take some work to set up, but it's the kind of thing that could be integrated into the current Pay by Phone app system.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Would be great if the city could implement a system where people who are the legitimate owners of a space could make their space available for rental. They could derive revenue from their vacant space and the city could take a small percentage for the service. It would take some work to set up, but it's the kind of thing that could be integrated into the current Pay by Phone app system.

It would be hard in this particular area, because none of the spaces are assigned. It was just street parking with signage saying for residents of that block only, but still a first come, first serve system. People who live on the block just sell or rent the common spaces.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It would be hard in this particular area, because none of the spaces are assigned. It was just street parking with signage saying for residents of that block only, but still a first come, first serve system. People who live on the block just sell or rent the common spaces.

I think it might actually work for that too. If there were a set number of spaces available for rental on a street, it wouldn't have to track which particular location on the street was rented, it would just have to match the number of rented spaces with the number of spaces made available by owners on that street, and the particulars of who parks where could be arbitrary

Just spit balling ideas obviously, but I'm kind of surprised something like that hasn't been done yet. Seems like there should be an app for that, though there's no doubt fraudsters would still manipulate that system to their gain as well.

[Fuzz]

Haven't you just described paid parking? Isn't the point of parking restrictions like that so they are only available for residents? The obvious solution is the city should put a stop to people selling things they don't own. I'm not sure why you are tying to find a way to make it work. You may as well remove the parking restriction and open it up to paid.

[Northendzone]

can the title of the thread be changed to "Ongoing Houses being stolen via title thread"

As i recall from reading the story about that one woman in toronto she mentioned to the reporter that she apparently had many memories attached to that home

i have to think that there has to be some risk for lenders in a scenario where the owner lives outside canada and conspires to arrange the theft of the home

the ingenuity of thieves never ceases to amaze me

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

can the title of the thread be changed to "Ongoing Houses being stolen via title thread"

As i recall from reading the story about that one woman in toronto she mentioned to the reporter that she apparently had many memories attached to that home

i have to think that there has to be some risk for lenders in a scenario where the owner lives outside canada and conspires to arrange the theft of the home

the ingenuity of thieves never ceases to amaze me

I think the big story is about title insurance. It seems up until now, it's helped people with their losses.

What happens if the industry can no longer sustain the claims and they bail?
from the first article I posted:


"In most of these cases, the real owner and the buyer are protected from most of the losses incurred through the fraud by having title insurance.

The insurance protects homeowners from fraudulent claims on their property and pays for legal expenses to re-establish the homeowner's title rights. If a buyer unwittingly buys a home that's been fraudulently listed, the insurance should also protect them. In cases like that, the true owner will likely get their home back and the unwitting buyer will get their money back.

But with title transfer and mortgage fraud claims skyrocketing, title insurer John Rider worries about the sustainability of providing this coverage in the long-term.

"There's four title companies in the business in Canada and we estimate that industry wide, it's easily $200 million, probably more, in fraud claims in the last two-and-a-half years."

Chicago Title Insurance Company has received more than 80 mortgage fraud claims since late 2019 — largely from the GTA and Greater Vancouver Area. The other three title insurers shared similar concerns with CBC Toronto — about a growing number of mortgage and title transfer frauds in recent years.

"We're seeing a level of sophistication in that area that we've never seen before," said Daniela DeTommaso, president of title insurance company FCT. "It's very organized."

Rider wants to see the government step up and lead the way on bolstering ID verification standards for professionals — so they don't just rely on IDs — in these kinds of transactions.

"Otherwise [the government]'s going to find that they're going to have a lot of consumers at their doorstep begging for help because they've lost title to their homes," he said.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

can the title of the thread be changed to "Ongoing Houses being stolen via title thread"

As i recall from reading the story about that one woman in toronto she mentioned to the reporter that she apparently had many memories attached to that home

i have to think that there has to be some risk for lenders in a scenario where the owner lives outside canada and conspires to arrange the theft of the home

the ingenuity of thieves never ceases to amaze me

No, because these 2 words are superfluous. Never put "thread" in the thread title because by it's very nature it is a thread, it doesn't need to be specified. It is what it is, and "ongoing" is unnecessary because the discussion will continue until it doesn't.

Let's have some standards around here! Many many thread titles could be fixed through omission.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Haven't you just described paid parking? Isn't the point of parking restrictions like that so they are only available for residents? The obvious solution is the city should put a stop to people selling things they don't own. I'm not sure why you are tying to find a way to make it work. You may as well remove the parking restriction and open it up to paid.

No. I'm describing a situation in which people who have the right to park there could rent it out through an app, more like an airbnb for residential parking spots. That's not the same at all. Residents would be renting out spots they're not using and making money off of them through a more controlled process than having multiple people on the side of road asking for cash in exchange for use of a space they may or may not have rights to.

It would still depend upon a good ownership verification system though, or else scammers would just use it to scam too.

Anyways, it's kind of OT and just an idea that came to mind along a tangential path.

[FlamesAddiction]

I was listening to this topic on the radio last week and they were saying how the people committing the fraud go all out on fake IDs, bills, mail, etc., and of course fake signatures in order to assume false identities.

It kind of made me think about how archaic identification is compared to the technology available. Using signatures to identify people dates back centuries and we are still using it as a primary way to confirm documents are real.

I know this is probably a slippery slope topic, but maybe we should start using finger prints or facial recognition software to confirm people are who they say they are. I mean, my phone can't even unlock without a facial scan. The same security would probably be useful for monetary transactions happening in my name if they are for a crazy amount of money.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

No. I'm describing a situation in which people who have the right to park there could rent it out through an app, more like an airbnb for residential parking spots. That's not the same at all. Residents would be renting out spots they're not using and making money off of them through a more controlled process than having multiple people on the side of road asking for cash in exchange for use of a space they may or may not have rights to.

It would still depend upon a good ownership verification system though, or else scammers would just use it to scam too.

Anyways, it's kind of OT and just an idea that came to mind along a tangential path.

You are suggesting residents be given the opportunity to make money from public property(street parking) that isn't theirs. You don't own or have a right to it, so you have no right to rent it out. Sorry to be so blunt, but this is dumb.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I was listening to this topic on the radio last week and they were saying how the people committing the fraud go all out on fake IDs, bills, mail, etc., and of course fake signatures in order to assume false identities.

It kind of made me think about how archaic identification is compared to the technology available. Using signatures to identify people dates back centuries and we are still using it as a primary way to confirm documents are real.

I know this is probably a slippery slope topic, but maybe we should start using finger prints or facial recognition software to confirm people are who they say they are. I mean, my phone can't even unlock without a facial scan. The same security would probably be useful for monetary transactions happening in my name if they are for a crazy amount of money.

New Zealand has been moving forward on setting up a system of digital identity use for a few years, and Estonia has been ahead on this kind of thing for a while, not to mention China of course.

Everything still depends upon fraud being prevented at the point of setting up the identity, and control over the identity being maintained, but it does enable many more controls and tools for preventing fraud.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by Slava

Another solution is to just have a HELOC (open, but not used) against the property.

If you own property out right, you should have should have a HELOC on it weather you need the cash or not. If you retire, or lose your job... it would be the absolute cheapest way to access credit, and you might have trouble establishing it if you can't prove income.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'd think the demographic that could pay off a mortgage is also financially restrained enough to avoid dipping into a HELOC for fun.

I don't know why I laughed out loud so much at this post. I pictured someone falling backwards into their computer chair and 'accidently' putting in their login credentials to their bank HELOC and buying a Ferrari at the same time.

I would venture that the demographics of people who have a paid off house(s) whose only safeguard from financial ruin is the burden of HELOC loan underwriting/application process is next to nil.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You are suggesting residents be given the opportunity to make money from public property(street parking) that isn't theirs. You don't own or have a right to it, so you have no right to rent it out. Sorry to be so blunt, but this is dumb.

Something is certainly blunt, or dulled.

I'm suggesting that people who have a residential permit allowing parking in a space or on a street, or ownership of a space in their building or on their lot, be able to rent that space out via an app instead of standing on the side of the road asking for cash.

People already do rent out the use of their permits or the use of their parking spaces in their building or on their lot. It just happens under the table. Integrating activities like this into a digital system could reduce cheating, provide another source of revenue to the city, open more parking availability to the public, and turn untaxed income through renting those spaces into taxable income. Maybe the city would dislike this if they felt the increased supply negatively impacted their ability to generate revenue off of their existing paid parking, but that's another issue.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Something is certainly blunt, or dulled.

I'm suggesting that people who have a residential permit allowing parking in a space or on a street, or ownership of a space in their building or on their lot, be able to rent that space out via an app instead of standing on the side of the road asking for cash.

People already do rent out the use of their permits or the use of their parking spaces in their building or on their lot. It just happens under the table. Integrating activities like this into a digital system could reduce cheating, provide another source of revenue to the city, open more parking availability to the public, and turn untaxed income through renting those spaces into taxable income. Maybe the city would dislike this if they felt the increased supply negatively impacted their ability to generate revenue off of their existing paid parking, but that's another issue.

People who have a residential parking permit don't own a spot, they are permitted to park in it. By allowing renting out of spaces, you are essentially assigning that space to a resident, which isn't how it works. It is shared parking for those residents. There isn't enoguh space for everyone. So your idea is for the city to gift this land and have residents rent it out? Again, this is dumb, and 'm not sure how else to day it. And nobody is allowed to stand on the street renting it out, it's already illegal. Just because someone has done something, doesn't mean it is legitimate. If the city wanted revenue from this, they'd make it paid parking, but for the benefit of residents with permits, they offer it for free. I suspect if they tried to make it paid parking without resident permits, there would be outrage, which is why it is as it is.

The only part that might make sense is in private buildings where the owner owns the spot. But many people do rent them out separately all on the up and up. An app may make finding them easier, that's about it.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

People who have a residential parking permit don't own a spot, they are permitted to park in it. By allowing renting out of spaces, you are essentially assigning that space to a resident, which isn't how it works. It is shared parking for those residents. There isn't enoguh space for everyone. So your idea is for the city to gift this land and have residents rent it out? Again, this is dumb, and 'm not sure how else to day it. And nobody is allowed to stand on the street renting it out, it's already illegal. Just because someone has done something, doesn't mean it is legitimate. If the city wanted revenue from this, they'd make it paid parking, but for the benefit of residents with permits, they offer it for free. I suspect if they tried to make it paid parking without resident permits, there would be outrage, which is why it is as it is.

The only part that might make sense is in private buildings where the owner owns the spot. But many people do rent them out separately all on the up and up. An app may make finding them easier, that's about it.

If you don't get how it would work, fine. I don't really care that much. You being unable to find another way to express your view rather than calling an idea 'dumb' is a good indicator that it's not worth conversing with you on it.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

If you don't get how it would work, fine. I don't really care that much. You being unable to find another way to express your view rather than calling an idea 'dumb' is a good indicator that it's not worth conversing with you on it.

I understand exactly what you are saying, and I've explained several times why it is dumb and wouldn't work, I'm kind of baffled why you don't understand the main issue with it, giving limited public land to private citizens to sell.

Ideas can be dumb! People come up with dumb ideas all the time. It's OK, you don't have to take it personally.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I understand exactly what you are saying, and I've explained several times why it is dumb and wouldn't work, I'm kind of baffled why you don't understand the main issue with it, giving limited public land to private citizens to sell.

Ideas can be dumb! People come up with dumb ideas all the time. It's OK, you don't have to take it personally.

No. You clearly don't. That's fine. People fail to understand things all the time. It's okay. We can move on and let the thread stay on topic.