Practice Notes: Jan 20

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I loathe this entire idea of “gifting a top 6 role”.

You want a talented player to develop? You play them with other talented players.

I’m not going overreact on where Pelts starts tomorrow, but the entire notion that it’s a bad thing to “gift” young talented players a position to play with other talented players is moronic and bad for player development.

Especially when the coach is gifting a top 6 role to Lucic.

Yes, but that doesn't happen in game 1.

How about giving him a chance to show what he looks like on NHL ice, without ####ing up one of the top lines, and then we can go from there?

No one is suggesting that he needs to spend a couple years on the 4th line.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

I'd rather Pelletier starts on the 4th in his first NHL game instead of playing top 6 minutes against a team like the Lightning. That would not be giving him a chance to succeed. Play well on the 4th against the lighting and maybe he moves up to the top 6th against a team that isn't as good.

As long as he gets the minutes that's the big thing. You can't expect him to get the Matthew Phillips treatment of 6-7 minutes and that's it he got his chance.

Sutter has overplayed Lucic and Ritchie when on the 4th line he can do the same with Pelletier.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

I'd rather Pelletier starts on the 4th in his first NHL game instead of playing top 6 minutes against a team like the Lightning. That would not be giving him a chance to succeed. Play well on the 4th against the lighting and maybe he moves up to the top 6th against a team that isn't as good.

I don't know. To see that seems like the 4th line will get targeted by Tampa whenever possible. Two rookies and Lewis? Rough line.

It's not worth getting bent out of shape over right now...but if that 4th line gets 6 minutes of ice time and then Pelletier gets demoted (Phillips treatment), then we have reason to go crazy.

Right now, the lines just seem odd - but that's been the case all season. So it's not really a big deal.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Like the Jackets on Monday

Yes exactly.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Mangiapane did that with Ryan and Hathaway. Maybe Pelletier-Lewis-Phillips? I’d be excited.

Some of you have really forgotten what Hathaway was - here are his numbers with the Flames:

15/16: 14G, 0-3-3
16/17: 26G, 1-4-5
17/18: 59G, 4-9-13
18/19: 76G, 11-8-19

He had 40 pts in 175 games and never had a 20 pt season. Lucic has never had less than 20.

In Mangiapane's first season, he had 13 pts in 44 games, a 24 pt pace, which was better than Hathaway's 20 pt pace - in his 4th season with the Flames.

Mangiapane didn't produce because he was playing with great players, he produced because he was a good player. And he made Hathaway a more productive player.

In other words, Mangiapane earned a higher role - on his own.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Some of you have really forgotten what Hathaway was - here are his numbers with the Flames:

15/16: 14G, 0-3-3
16/17: 26G, 1-4-5
17/18: 59G, 4-9-13
18/19: 76G, 11-8-19

He had 40 pts in 175 games and never had a 20 pt season. Lucic has never had less than 20.

In Mangiapane's first season, he had 13 pts in 44 games, a 24 pt pace, which was better than Hathaway's 20 pt pace - in his 4th season with the Flames.

Mangiapane didn't produce because he was playing with great players, he produced because he was a good player. And he made Hathaway a more productive player.

In other words, Mangiapane earned a higher role - on his own.

Hathaway was a good energy player but I think you are under selling what Ryan brought. Good solid numbers and great in the dot.

Lewis has been a good foot soldier but he sucks at faceoffs having a natural C on that line would help as Lewis is a natural winger and better fit on the wing.

[Derek Sutton]

Sutter insists in turning skilled players into checkers to fit this narrative. “It’s a 3-2 league”because that’s how he coaches his team. If only he would coach a style that let his skilled players showcase their skill, they might win by two or three or four goals, have fun and entertain the fans.

And for so many to believe that this is a team built more for playoffs than regular season, please enlighten me as to why. Too slow, too old, too boring, too disengaged and not physical at all.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Hathaway was a good energy player but I think you are under selling what Ryan brought. Good solid numbers and great in the dot.

Lewis has been a good foot soldier but he sucks at faceoffs having a natural C on that line would help as Lewis is a natural winger and better fit on the wing.

Ryan was a good two-way player. But not so much that it moves the needle for this conversation. The point is that it is pretty common for players to start on the fourth line, and it is entirely up to them to prove they deserve more. And the players who DO deserve more (like Mangiapane) DID prove it, on their own.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by dustygoon

What's the point of Dube on the first line? I don't get this stuff. I don't see what the team sees in him.

Agreed. That line has disappointed far more than popped. I have been thoroughly disappointed by lindholm offensively this year. A lot of that has to do with losing 2 elite wingers, but his inability to really generate anything 5 on 5 regardless has been alarming.

Dube isn’t really a top 6 forwards in my eyes, but has the skill set to move up and down the lineup. Problem for him is that lindholm/toffoli aren’t really like drivers at 5on5 either. Lindholm not having a playmaker on his line has really made him a non-factor offensively, which sucks.

Huberdeau being a complete and utter flop has really f’d up all the slotting for the forwards.

As such, can’t really blame dube in my view. Not his fault he’s playing too high up on the depth chart.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

I think easing Pelletier in via the 4th line isn't a terrible idea. Sure, it'd be nice to play with top 6 guys, but that means he'd be playing against top 6 guys. Ease him in, gain some confidence, hopefully see some production and let him work his way up the line up. I think it's fair to compare Pelletier to both Mangiapane and Dube in terms of upside. And that's how they both became NHL regulars.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Sutter insists in turning skilled players into checkers to fit this narrative. “It’s a 3-2 league”because that’s how he coaches his team. If only he would coach a style that let his skilled players showcase their skill, they might win by two or three or four goals, have fun and entertain the fans.

And for so many to believe that this is a team built more for playoffs than regular season, please enlighten me as to why. Too slow, too old, too boring, too disengaged and not physical at all.

I don’t understand this bashing of sutter. He coached the best line in hockey last year , so what gives?

I can see the challenging of sutter with regards to the lines and personnel decisions, but the lack of offence isn’t all on sutter in my opinion.

[SuperMatt18]

That line hasn't been elite - but he's been fine.

Dube is underappreciated on this forum IMO - over the last three seasons and this season he's comfortably a top 6 forward when it comes to 5v5 production and per 60 production.

As a line Dube-Lindholm-Toffoli have been:

55% Corsi For
54.4% xGF
55.6% GF (10 For - 8 Against)

When you have that line and the Mangiapane-Backlund-Coleman line you are in decent shape:

Mangiapane-Backlund-Coleman.

66.4% Corsi For
70.0 xGF
70.0% GF (7 For, 3 GA)

The problem becomes we got lucky that Lucic-Kadri-Huberdeau worked for a bit but it's not sustainable and they need to find a third member that works on that line.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

I think easing Pelletier in via the 4th line isn't a terrible idea. Sure, it'd be nice to play with top 6 guys, but that means he'd be playing against top 6 guys. Ease him in, gain some confidence, hopefully see some production and let him work his way up the line up. I think it's fair to compare Pelletier to both Mangiapane and Dube in terms of upside. And that's how they both became NHL regulars.

Is he going to be eased into the lineup though or is he going to receive 8-9 minutes a game and then get sent down?

This kid hasn't played a hockey game in 2 1/2 weeks, is being thrown on the fourth line in his first NHL game, and will play 3-4 shifts a period. Go "earn it" kid. It's almost as if Sutter has built in an excuse as to why he won't play him.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

That line hasn't been elite - but he's been fine.

Dube is underappreciated on this forum IMO - over the last three seasons and this season he's comfortably a top 6 forward when it comes to 5v5 production and per 60 production.

As a line Dube-Lindholm-Toffoli have been:

55% Corsi For
54.4% xGF
55.6% GF (10 For - 8 Against)

So that's not bad at all.

Curious, what is that lines GF vs GA ?

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Ruzicka has had every opportunity to earn more ice time.
His effort level is wildly inconsistent. Always has been.
He earned his way up the line-up and his earned his way down it.

These kind of statements really irk me. Who's effort was much more consistent over the entire season? Mangiapane? Dube? Kadri? Huberdeau? Lucic? Even Lindholm disappears for multiple games at a time. In my eyes only 3 forwards have been consistent throughout the season: Lewis, Backlund, and Toffoli.

Ruzicka wasn't given "every opportunity". Sutter didn't try him higher in the lineup since the reunion of Mangiapane - Backlund - Coleman, which I agree is better with Mangiapane on it.

It seems like there's just a double standard because he is a prospect. Either that or him and Zohorna were out partying before the game against CHI where Sutter said:

We should be thankful we got a point considering that a lot of our young players didn't show up... lack of preparation, right? got to take them by the hand some of these guys

Shortly after Zohorna has been sent down, and now Ruzicka sits. That said, that's purely speculation on my part.

In my eyes, Ruzicka has been creating offense and is one of the positives of this entire season. Moreover, after he was demoted to the 4th line, the 4th line started to look like less of a liability, and even provided more energy. Not to mention that the 4th line with Lewis as the center didn't look great this year. I would take out Lucic, Dube, or Duehr out of the lineup before Ruzicka.

[1_Flames_Fan]

So Pelletier likely gets 2 games on the 4th line with limited ice and unless he scores a goal or two he's scratched again. Thats my guess but hopefully I'm wrong.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Pelletier (finally) getting in is great.

Lucic remaining in the top 9 is mind bottling.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

I could not disagree more.

Since his demotion

16 games

CF% - 59.60 (4th among forwards behind the Backlund line)
SF% - 62.96% (2nd among forwards)
xGA - 4.93 (lowest on the team)
xGF% - 54.7%
HDCF% - 51.06% (4th among forwards behind the Backlund line)
On ice SH% - 4.71% (lowest of any forward)

This kid is literally doing everything that is asked of him this season, and single handedly turned that 4th line around.

These numbers really surprised me because I've been watching him and frankly he looks lazy and disengaged. I think it may just be his style of play/skating stride or something

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by heep223

These numbers really surprised me because I've been watching him and frankly he looks lazy and disengaged. I think it may just be his style of play/skating stride or something

He appears "lethargic" at times due to his size and style of play. He's cerebral and thinks the game at a high level. He's not and likely never will be the type of player that Darryl wants him to be but his on ice impacts speak for themselves.

Every metric available suggests that this is a guy who should be in our top six.. not playing fourth line minutes, or sitting out all together.

[Moneyhands23]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

Pelletier (finally) getting in is great.

Lucic remaining in the top 9 is mind bottling.

Hopefully Pelltier can get some bump up shifts.