[PGT] Avalanche 4 Flames 1

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Oh snapple. Forgotten how it worked, I had.

it's OK. only Arizona, Buffalo and Edmonton fans would be well versed in such things

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I’m beginning to believe the only reason it “worked” is because he put Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk together - the best line in all of hockey. It was so good, that 2 of the 3 bailed on the organization.

Sutter is not running a meritocracy this season. Lucic went from the press box to the “top” line. Sutter really isn’t doing anything this year. He rolls 4 lines endlessly, even when the situation desperately requires something else.

I don’t think we have a lazy culture. Everyone on the team is working hard. The problem is that they’re being told to dig straight up.

Motivation requires 2 things. Carrot or stick. This is basic human nature.

Carrot? Contracts locked in for key guys. So that’s gone.

So stick. Meritocracy. You cannot afford not to have it.

That’s why you bring in young guys (who are producing…….). Young guys will still work for the carrot. Basic ####. If you’re not going to reward good play you have to punish bad play and he’s not doing it.

Main problem with the team is laziness likely derived from coaching.

[ComixZone]

Flames will be out of the playoffs by the end of the weekend.

Flames play Tampa on Saturday.
Colorado plays Vancouver and then Seattle.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

With the exception of last season Darryl Sutter hasn’t coached a team that had a player reach over a point a game average in 23 years. Hell - even Jarome couldn’t do it when he was the best player on the planet. I know who I’m pointing my finger at for Huberdeau’s dramatic drop off in production.

Time and time again this coach has completely drained the confidence and creativity of his top forwards.

He did great for us in 03/04 but after that it was down hill as the league moved towards skill speed and goal scoring Darryl became even more anti hockey.

His first cup win the team had quick in a historical run and Carter coming in also on the verge of missing.

Second cup team won 3 consecutive game 7 and also a 0-3 come back and won 3 ot games in the finals. That is some serious luck going your way.

He's pretty much Paul Maurice with a big mouth trying to sound smart. Pile on the wins with medicore teams and wear out your welcome quickly.

Has any team locked their coach out of the locker room after he led them to 2 cups?

[FlamesAddiction]

Huberdeau's point totals were probably exaggerated being on the Panthers. On an average team, he was probably more of an 80-90 point player. A really good player of course. Getting 115 points last season on the high flying Panthers was probably not something that was going to be repeated anywhere else. That was also his 28/29 year old season, which is within the time frame most forwards peak, but probably more on the later side of the curve. This year is his 29/30 year old season and it is not uncommon at all to see player production start to decline at this point. It varies from player to player of course, but most aren't going to be matching career years at this point.

So if you take that skill-wise, he is an 80-90 point player on most teams (which is just my opinion, feel free to disagree), a drop of to the 60-70 point range is not that crazy. You see it happen with players all the time in their later prime. Maybe he is a guy like Patrick Elias, who had a few PPG seasons including one just shy of 100 points (played in a lower scoring time), but then fell of a small cliff and became a perennial 50-60 point player at around the same age.

The thing that sucks is that the Flames are going to be paying the price of a 100+ point season. Basically, they are subsidizing his salary for success he had in Florida. It feels real bad knowing we are paying him at that rate for the next 8 years after this season.

I really do hope I am wrong. I was optimistic about him at the start of the season, but he hasn't given us any reason to be now. Maybe he pulls an Erik Karlsson and completely turns it around. We really have no choice but to hope for the best at this point.

[NewFan]

I think this team will not go for rebuild or retool.
At the moment they can't score, can't defend and goalies are just average.
So I think this team needs to improve Ds and defense very soon.
Stone is Okay for 7th D but not good when he is in every game.
Find someone that can play with Tanev, who can shut down other team.
Hanifin-Anderson playing too much and making mistakes because of it.
Zadarov and Weegar should be better that Zadarov-Stone pair.
When D improves G should improve a little bit and this team needs to try to win 2-1 everytime.
I think if the team needs start to win games now especially against playoff and divisional teams as it will be very difficult to catch team after All star game break. Half of the teams will go hard to go down in the standing by dressing AHL team while all good players taking IR for preparing next year. So all playoff teams will get easy 2 points from them.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I’m beginning to believe the only reason it “worked” is because he put Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk together - the best line in all of hockey. It was so good, that 2 of the 3 bailed on the organization.

Sutter is not running a meritocracy this season. Lucic went from the press box to the “top” line. Sutter really isn’t doing anything this year. He rolls 4 lines endlessly, even when the situation desperately requires something else.

The 5v5 splits last year kind of prove that out.

With any of Tkachuk-Lindholm-Gaudreau on the ice: 105 GF / 44 GA

When those three weren't on the ice: 91 GF / 95 GA

And even then that top line was a bit lucky because they shot like 13% on ice and out performed xG by 30 goals.

This team wasnt great last year when those three werent on the ice either, and were propped up a bit by that line's shooting percentage.

Sometimes its forgotten too but there were very similar complaints last year about Sutter's line combos on all lines except for the top line.

Backlund on the wing, Monahan with Lucic and Lewis, Richardson, Lucic, Pitlick and Lewis all in the lineup. It was only when 88-11-20 were put together that we had two lines clicking at least.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Oliver kylington would sure provide a nice shake up on defense right about now

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Sutter says tonight to start off with: “you can’t beat the cup champs twice in a season.”

Why? Wtf? Based on what? What are you talking about? Just cuz!

I would have LOVED to see two years ago Sutters face at that remark. What happened to this guy? That quote alone is a fireable offense. Brutal.

This can't be real.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by zamler

This can't be real.

He then continues on to say “he knows where this team is” and that it’s not on the same level as top teams.

…which, yeah - we kinda know, Darryl.

[iamca]

A lack of leadership, an old school stubborn coach that apparently no one is brave enough to tell him how he’s adding to this terrible season within the organization, and a veteran laden team going through the motions is an atrocious combination.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[GullFoss]

If the flames were a meritocracy, Hubby would be playing with Lewis and Ruzicka on the fourth line.

[N-E-B]

I think Sutter was absolutely what the doctor ordered for the past three seasons, however I’m starting to strongly believe that he simply is not the right guy to lead this new group. This is a radically different core than the past few years. Sometimes these things just don’t work out and personalities don’t mesh like you’d hope. His failure to name a captain kind of says it all to me.

I have all the respect for Daryl as a person and I think he’s a great coach and a knowledgeable hockey mind. I really don’t want to fire the guy but I’m just not sure he’s what this team needs right now. Something isn’t clicking.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

If the flames were a meritocracy, Hubby would be playing with Lewis and Ruzicka on the fourth line.

He's been disappointing, but he has very strong defensive metrics this season - for a player who was mocked for his defensive play in prior seasons.

Outside of some turnovers, is he really not doing what Darryl is telling him?

Seems to me like he's bought into Darryl Sutter hockey.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Last year wasn’t just strong stats. He looked damn good.
And he is a damn good player
Not sure why it’s not working here

I've been arguing in favour of those points for a while now

for 4 seasons he was as elite as they come for playmaking wingers and it's a huge sample size. he was more consistent than gaudreau

I think Sutter is throwing off the vibe between all these guys and the creativity on the ice is suffering as a result

you saw different "glimpses" from huberdeau and Kadri in the early days in October than you do now, since they've been figuratively beaten into submission

obviously less polished defensively then, but more offensively dynamic when they first came in

problem is he's worked them up to merely average defensively, but now neutered offensively

and visibly bouncing between unmotivated and frustrated

[GullFoss]

I can't think of a single, top-tier NHL player outside of huby that hasn't had success under sutter. Did some players generate less offense than prior seasons due to a more defensive structure? Sure. But those players still generated a substantial amount of the offence their team generated.

Huby is driving zero offence. Forgot about creativity...he doesn't create chances off the rush. The doesn't dangle. He doesn't create chances off the cycle. Over 40-games, the eye test and his headline stats line up pretty closely.

What exactly has he done? Top tier guys under Sutter still produced - guys like Iginla, Johnny, Tkachuk, Kopitar, Richards, Carter, Williams, Brown, Lindholm, Mangiapane - and all found success.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

I can't think of a single, top-tier NHL player outside of huby that hasn't had success under sutter. Did some players generate less offense than prior seasons due to a more defensive structure? Sure. But those players still generated a substantial amount of the offence their team generated.

Huby is driving zero offence. Forgot about creativity...he doesn't create chances off the rush. The doesn't dangle. He doesn't create chances off the cycle. Over 40-games, the eye test and his headline stats line up pretty closely.

What exactly has he done? Top tier guys under Sutter still produced - guys like Iginla, Johnny, Tkachuk, Kopitar, Richards, Carter, Williams, Brown, Lindholm, Mangiapane - and all found success.

Mangiapane isn’t finding success this season.

All those other players you note weren’t having to play with a 14th forward, or getting shuffled to the 3rd line for extended periods.

Iginla found more success away from Darryl than with Darryl. Lindholm, Tkachuk and Gaudreau benefitted from playing with each other. You forget, Gaudreau was trash and not producing…mainly because he wasn’t being played with Monahan and Ritchie ffs until they shut Monahan down and eventually tried Tkachuk-Lindholm-Gaudreau and never looked back.

There’s also a reason why those very same LA King players you listed locked Darryl out of the locker room.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

the rebuild route would've worked out well for them, just needed patience to see it through

they just needed to take a package built around futures, promote from the farm and stay the course

should've yoinked treliving from his chair before he could make his hail mary play & signings

and I hope I regret that in the future and take it back

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by Joborule

To be fair to Sutter though, he's working with the roster he has. I know this forum has extremely high expectations on the players in the farm that they're gonna perform better than the top 9 players on the roster currently, but that's just not realistic.

Faceoffs and lack of finish being woeful is the responsibility of the person who's assembled the team. The blame for the current mediocracy of the team is on Treliving. There's a significant lack of offensive talent on the roster. He tried to salvage something after his two important players left the team this offseason, but the results so far indicate that it wasn't enough to replace their production, and the team is missing it significantly.

I don’t have “extremely high expectations” of the kids in the farm. I just want to watch players who give a damn and provide something to watch. I want to watch players develop and get better, not whatever this crap is.

You can be invested when your team is losing, this squad barely has me on the odd occasion it wins.

[CGY12]

Huberdeau the last 4 years put up 346 points in 286 games. Good for a 1.21 average.

This year at age 29 he has 31 points in 43 games. Good for a disappointing 0.72.

Do people actually think he just forgot how to produce at a star to elite level over night? Now I'm not absolving him from all responsibility, as he is clearly struggling to adjust, however if this doesn't scream coaching I don't know what does.

Sutter talks about system, structure, which is all dandy to an extent. Hockey is a creative game and it seems like he's sucked all of that out of this particular group. Then you consider his deployment, lines, hot media sound bites and to me he's lost it.

Love Sutter and respect what he's done for this org but he's got to go.