Russia invades Ukraine

[Redliner]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Then we can't help. It's not like we have a surplus of good equipment we're just sitting on that we can send over with no affect on our combat readiness.

So if you "very strongly" agree with Canada giving support to Ukraine, then you have to accept it will weaken Canada's military (at least temporarily until we replenish).

You can't want to give support to Ukraine, but not want it to affect our own military. Doesn't work that way.

Personally - ignoring the brutality and horror of this war on Ukrainians and their country (infrastructure, opportunities, economy, etc.) - I think this is best-case-scenario use of our military hardware. We're not risking Canadian lives and we're harming/weakening a threatening/adversarial country.

There is also the moral imperative I believe we have to help with this and I much prefer my tax dollars going toward helping Ukraine in spite of it leaving us a bit more exposed. This is when it is comforting to be a part of the NATO alliance. I don't think we're going to be so exposed that we'll have to worry about being bowled over by another country, but it is a risk I'm willing to take to help Ukraine.

This is actually an excellent point and I find myself agreeing with you in spite of the previous point I was trying to make. I just find it frustrating that we seem so able to send materiel overseas but can't seem to re-equip our own forces properly. I do think there is danger in letting our military capabilities lapse or assuming that allies will do all the heavy lifting for us. History has taught us that the ability (or inability) to fight is never a big issue until it suddenly is - and that can happen extremely quickly. While Canada will never be a global military powerhouse, I think it is imperative that we maintain at least a marginal capability to look after ourselves and our own interests.

P12 makes some interesting points but I do stand by what I said about tanks being necessary. Effectively fighting a ground war on a modern battlefield depends on having them, and the simple reality is that tracked vehicles can do things that wheeled vehicles can not. P12's light tank "MPF" definitely has possibilities and could provide a more flexible option than something like Leopard, but I feel like survivability may be a question if that were our only "tank" solution as it would not stand up against a modern MBT.

[CroFlames]

As a G7 country, expectations should be higher for what the military can do.

Ukraine is the hotspot right now and every dollar or piece of equipment donated is in Canada's and NATO's interest. Even depleting our own inventory. Sounds crude, but it's better than sending our young men to face Russian guns.

Again as a G7 nation, Canada should be able to both assist in hotspots like Ukraine AND equip our own military with what is needed. I suppose one major hurdle is what is needed? I don't think we want to be a nation that can project power and have an Atlantic and Pacific carrier groups. But I do think we want to be able to protect every part of Canada from the air with anti-air defense and a modern agile air force. APCs and IFVs are probably more up our alley when it comes to assisting with insurgencies around the world in future conflicts.

Ironically, the result of Putin's actions are forcing Canada and NATO to reevaluate, and ultimately become stronger militarily. He is seriously a dope.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

As a G7 country, expectations should be higher for what the military can do.

Why? What does being a G7 Country have to do with the military, at all?

What is the actual purpose of Canada's military, today? Is it an expeditionary force? Is it defense? I am unclear- and I am not sure that the military as currently constructed is capable of either of these tasks with consistency. Fortunately I also don't see the great need for either of these today. But if I had to choose, the purpose would be defense.

I'm not trying to be hostile to any current or former members of military, if anything I am hostile to the ministry and government bureaucracy that has overseen the forces for the last few decades. But i think we really need to sit and answer the why. This, imo, is why it has been so critically mismanaged. No one is clear on the why.

[jeffman]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/18/europ...ntl/index.html
Coincidence or political purge?

[Lego Man]

Originally Posted by jeffman

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/18/europ...ntl/index.html
Coincidence or political purge?

I missed it when reading this article (and all others about the event) - what leads you to believe there is any political purging going on?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Why? What does being a G7 Country have to do with the military, at all?

What is the actual purpose of Canada's military, today? Is it an expeditionary force? Is it defense? I am unclear- and I am not sure that the military as currently constructed is capable of either of these tasks with consistency. Fortunately I also don't see the great need for either of these today. But if I had to choose, the purpose would be defense.

I'm not trying to be hostile to any current or former members of military, if anything I am hostile to the ministry and government bureaucracy that has overseen the forces for the last few decades. But i think we really need to sit and answer the why. This, imo, is why it has been so critically mismanaged. No one is clear on the why.

All great questions and a great discusson, but not necessarily in the correct thread.

Perhaps move it to the Canadian Military Thread (not many look there) or the Canadian Politics thread

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

All great questions and a great discusson, but not necessarily in the correct thread.

Perhaps move it to the Canadian Military Thread (not many look there) or the Canadian Politics thread

Agreed!

[Trojan97]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1615966592252403720

Good for Poland here.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Trojan97

https://twitter.com/user/status/1615966592252403720

Good for Poland here.

Asking forgiveness is how a stay married.

Poland understands.

[CaptainCrunch]

So it turns out that we won't be sending tanks. Out of the 83 some odd tanks in Canada's inventory only 20 are actually combat functional, with another 30 that are training tanks.

So even if we wanted to, we couldn't.

[burn_this_city]

Everything is going according to plan for the 3 day SMO.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1616101028134256643

[IliketoPuck]

Massive aid packages from many different countries being announced today.

Fascinated to see the final tallied outcome of tomorrow's meeting.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

So it turns out that we won't be sending tanks. Out of the 83 some odd tanks in Canada's inventory only 20 are actually combat functional, with another 30 that are training tanks.

So even if we wanted to, we couldn't.

Haha, a single company of tanks.

[CaptainCrunch]

I thought a tank company was 10 to 14 tanks with a headquarters

I might be getting old.

But its still really 2 understrength companies.

[Trojan97]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Massive aid packages from many different countries being announced today.

Fascinated to see the final tallied outcome of tomorrow's meeting.

Not sure if you saw this post yet but when you see it laid out like this the arms package is looking strong and more to come (hopefully) like you say.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1616029691990663168

[peter12]

Whoa Patriot batteries.

180 Lep 1 tanks, assuming they are in good working order, are more than a match for most of the Russian garbage chugging around Ukraine. That gorgeous venerable L7 gun.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by peter12

Whoa Patriot batteries.

180 Lep 1 tanks, assuming they are in good working order, are more than a match for most of the Russian garbage chugging around Ukraine. That gorgeous venerable L7 gun.

Those tanks aren't ready and need to be rebuilt. Rhinemetall says they probably won't finish before end of 2023 in a previous article I posted.

We still need confirmation they will be sent for the Leopard 2s. Germany is going to lose a lot of defense customers if they start blocking re-exports like this. The Korean tanks are going to look really attractive to other customers soon.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

So it turns out that we won't be sending tanks. Out of the 83 some odd tanks in Canada's inventory only 20 are actually combat functional, with another 30 that are training tanks.

So even if we wanted to, we couldn't.

Send the twenty working ones and prioritize rebuilds on the others? Denmark is sending ALL their artillery.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1616084731795472384

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Redliner

This is actually an excellent point and I find myself agreeing with you in spite of the previous point I was trying to make. I just find it frustrating that we seem so able to send materiel overseas but can't seem to re-equip our own forces properly. I do think there is danger in letting our military capabilities lapse or assuming that allies will do all the heavy lifting for us. History has taught us that the ability (or inability) to fight is never a big issue until it suddenly is - and that can happen extremely quickly. While Canada will never be a global military powerhouse, I think it is imperative that we maintain at least a marginal capability to look after ourselves and our own interests.

P12 makes some interesting points but I do stand by what I said about tanks being necessary. Effectively fighting a ground war on a modern battlefield depends on having them, and the simple reality is that tracked vehicles can do things that wheeled vehicles can not. P12's light tank "MPF" definitely has possibilities and could provide a more flexible option than something like Leopard, but I feel like survivability may be a question if that were our only "tank" solution as it would not stand up against a modern MBT.

I just don't think Canada will ever have the capacity, outside of a total war situation, to engage in heavy battlefield slugging with MBTs. Best to strengthen our armoured recce capabilities. Plenty of options to add in tank destroyer/hit and run capabilities to that kind of force.

Australia, a Commonwealth mid-sized country with sane defense policies, more or less agrees that it doesn't need a top tier MBT as it recently chose to go with the older M1A1 for its armour.

[calumniate]

Wow, Sweden sending 50 CV90's as well. The equipment faucet is finally opening up!

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ing-to-ukraine

I didn't even know what a CV90 was, but that along with a bunch of Bradley's will surely help