Did Sutter change the system?

[Mathgod]

When Sutter took over in 2020, he coached for 32 games where the team continued to struggle. Then the team didn't exactly look all that great through 36 games into the next season.

So there was a 68 game adjustment period with players getting used to Sutter and his system. It wasn't until game.... 69.... that the team really started (get your head out of the gutter) firing on all cylinders.

Now with big changes to the team's core in the offseason, it might take about that many games for the team to truly hit its stride. But honestly, with consistent goaltending and Kylly being here all year, the team probably has 8-10 additional points and we aren't sitting here having this conversation anyway.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

For forwards, I think it's a matter of chemistry. They have talent, but the pieces just don't fit together well enough for it to shine. They have no flow with each other. That's starting to improve, but it's still a long way off what the stars had last year.

For Markstrom, I don't know. Something happened between round one game seven and round two game one, and he has never fully recovered.

I agree. If you look at Gaudreau vs Tkachuk vs Lindholm all 3 players are different and excel in different areas of the ice.

Gaudreau - Excels in transition, Perimeter player, elite playmaker
Tkachuk - Good in defensive zone, Elite blue line down, plays along the boards and in front of the net. Elite playmaker
Lindholm - Good in defensive zone, goal scorer and a slot shooter.

All 3 players bring different things to the table and excel in different areas of the ice.

Toffoli, Lindholm, Kadri and Huberdeau kind of excel in the same areas, Kadri and Huberdeau both play in the same areas and Toffoli and Lindholm do as well. I still think the best bet is to switch the combos and have Lindholm with Huberdeau and Kadri with Toffoli. Still a problem with the neutral zone especially with Lindholm and Huberdeau. But if Treliving can add a speedy skilled winger this team can still be elite.

Mangiapane also is a perimeter player who isn't great in transition.

[Enoch Root]

Did Sutter change the system? No. Why would he?

But I do think Sutter is definitely part of the issue. I believe that confidence, and its little sister, chemistry, are everything. And the Flames don't have that yet. And the reason they don't, beyond all the changes in the off-season, is that Sutter has them focusing on the defensive side of the game, positioning, etc. And that focus has them playing slowly, carefully, and timidly. They are playing on their heels, afraid to make mistakes.

The other primary factor is goaltending. Good goaltending is an absolute necessity for winning. Great goaltending will build confidence and cause the team to play better. And poor goaltending derails the entire team - nothing destroys confidence like poor goaltending.

So you have a team that is playing on their heels, lacking confidence. And you have a goalie that has struggled. But on top of that, like Lanny_McDonald said, you have a coach that is being stubborn about how he manages the team, and the way in which he thinks he needs to handle them, to get them where he wants them to be.

IMO, Sutter needs to stop with the 'I know how to build a winner' strategy that he has been steadfastly sticking with, and start giving the team what it needs. This team needs life. It needs an injection of youth. It needs to build confidence and start having some fun. Sutter needs to let go of the reins a bit, and let the team run.

[Rollin22x]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Team would have a better record than last year with .920 Markstrom

Goaltending is the most important position in hockey

I think team play helped him get to .920. He's not helping himself but neither is the team.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Did Sutter change the system? No. Why would he?

But I do think Sutter is definitely part of the issue. I believe that confidence, and its little sister, chemistry, are everything. And the Flames don't have that yet. And the reason they don't, beyond all the changes in the off-season, is that Sutter has them focusing on the defensive side of the game, positioning, etc. And that focus has them playing slowly, carefully, and timidly. They are playing on their heels, afraid to make mistakes.

The other primary factor is goaltending. Good goaltending is an absolute necessity for winning. Great goaltending will build confidence and cause the team to play better. And poor goaltending derails the entire team - nothing destroys confidence like poor goaltending.

So you have a team that is playing on their heels, lacking confidence. And you have a goalie that has struggled. But on top of that, like Lanny_McDonald said, you have a coach that is being stubborn about how he manages the team, and the way in which he thinks he needs to handle them, to get them where he wants them to be.

IMO, Sutter needs to stop with the 'I know how to build a winner' strategy that he has been steadfastly sticking with, and start giving the team what it needs. This team needs life. It needs an injection of youth. It needs to build confidence and start having some fun. Sutter needs to let go of the reins a bit, and let the team run.

Unless a young player comes in and makes an impact instantly this team probably will not be elite until they get a fast skilled playmaker. A lot of us pointed to this in the summer. I was tossing Hanifin for necas or Barzal trades ideas out as IMO this is the missing piece. We can blame Huberdeau for not playing up to par but without a player on this team that can skate the puck down the other team's throat, he will continue to be smothered the second he touches the puck. He has no time and space. Barzal can do that but with the Kylington situation, Hanifin is not expendable. But I was suggesting this before they released that news.

Maybe Treliving had plans to address this but couldn't. Kylington situation has hurt this team big time.

[FlamesAddiction]

Sutter's system isn't so much a system as much as it is a philosophy. Get the puck in the offensive zone and keep it there. Whether that means dumping the puck in, board play, or taking a low-percentage shot, then do it. Keep it simple dummy. That doesn't mean he doesn't want players holding on to the puck and setting up plays. Dump ins and board play is just preferable to constantly failing at set plays and causing turnovers, but if you don't have to do that, that's great too.

The Lindholm line thrived on set plays last season, and I doubt Sutter was giving them hell about it after games. Sutter has actually had a lot of luck in the past with those kinds of players. The problem is that the current players we have in the top 6 either can't do that, or haven't found the chemistry yet.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Did Sutter change the system? No. Why would he?

But I do think Sutter is definitely part of the issue. I believe that confidence, and its little sister, chemistry, are everything. And the Flames don't have that yet. And the reason they don't, beyond all the changes in the off-season, is that Sutter has them focusing on the defensive side of the game, positioning, etc. And that focus has them playing slowly, carefully, and timidly. They are playing on their heels, afraid to make mistakes.

The other primary factor is goaltending. Good goaltending is an absolute necessity for winning. Great goaltending will build confidence and cause the team to play better. And poor goaltending derails the entire team - nothing destroys confidence like poor goaltending.

So you have a team that is playing on their heels, lacking confidence. And you have a goalie that has struggled. But on top of that, like Lanny_McDonald said, you have a coach that is being stubborn about how he manages the team, and the way in which he thinks he needs to handle them, to get them where he wants them to be.

IMO, Sutter needs to stop with the 'I know how to build a winner' strategy that he has been steadfastly sticking with, and start giving the team what it needs. This team needs life. It needs an injection of youth. It needs to build confidence and start having some fun. Sutter needs to let go of the reins a bit, and let the team run.

I think our defensive play is holding back us becoming a more free flowing team this year. Getting pucks back quick and turning up ice with speed was a trademark last season. This year seems like we are doing a lot more chasing.

But I agree is being stubborn in terms of ice time, players in the lineup and bench management. His way or the highway isn't working anymore. We need some youth and speed in the lineup.

A goalie making some saves would help as well.

[calgaryred]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

If Huberdeau can't get it going with Lindholm as his centre, I don't know why he's making $10.5 million.

It's 5.9 million next year he's overpaid

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[Snuffleupagus]

Some of the decisions Sutter is making is mind boggling, starting 2 Dmen in OT, shootout picks, Lucic in the top 6, publicly says the team lacks skill and refuses to even try our skilled youth when called up.

Hockey isn't boxing Mr Sutter, you can't rope-a-dope your way to wins.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Sutter's system isn't so much a system as much as it is a philosophy.

Disagree with this completely. Players don't spend the whole game ringing the puck around the boards unless they have it drilled into them that this is where their teammates are expected to be. It is counter to the instincts of a player, especially skilled players. Skilled players like to maintain control of the puck and dump and chase hockey is system where you give up the puck in hopes of forcing a mistake which turns into a scoring opportunity. The Flames systemically play along the boards and give up the middle of the ice for way too much of the game. This is systemic and Sutter enforces it by the lineup he chooses to dress. There is no way you dress Lucic and Lewis if you are not intent on playing along the boards, because that is where their only strength in game is left. The team has guys with more skill who play more in the middle of the ice, but that is not what Sutter wants. He wants a slow, grind it out, war of attrition out there. Always has and always will. Don't let last year's aberration fool you.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Rollin22x

I think team play helped him get to .920. He's not helping himself but neither is the team.

Probably overall...they have still lost at least 4 games on his bad goaltending alone...that is 8 points. And honestly that is probably being nice.

they are 4 points worse than last year after the same amount of games

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Some of the decisions Sutter is making is mind boggling, starting 2 Dmen in OT, shootout picks, Lucic in the top 6, publicly says the team lacks skill and refuses to even try our skilled youth when called up.

Hockey isn't boxing Mr Sutter, you can't rope-a-dope your way to wins.

Well he went away from that last night and they lost in 28 seconds...

[Ottoman Empire]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

Lucic has the same number of goals in the last 20 games as Huberdeau (4)

Right....so let's just keep him there. All in favour of Lucic staying in the top 6? Thought so. Maybe Huberdeau and Kadri only have x goals and x assists because their linemate they have to play with, belongs in the press box or the 4th line.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Sutter coaches the way I'd expect him to coach if we lost Chucky and Johnny for nothing, never traded for Hubes/Weegs, didn't sign Kadri and were down Kylington for a whole season.

Because if we lost both are stars with zero replacements, I'd expect Sutter to coach us the way he would coach a talent depleted roster that has to win on grit and defense alone.

Utterly perplexing.

[Yikes]

Originally Posted by calgaryred

It's 5.9 million next year he's overpaid

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

He is not overpaid, he is undercoached.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Sutter coaches the way I'd expect him to coach if we lost Chucky and Johnny for nothing, never traded for Hubes/Weegs, didn't sign Kadri and were down Kylington for a whole season.

Because if we lost both are stars with zero replacements, I'd expect Sutter to coach us the way he would coach a talent depleted roster that has to win on grit and defense alone.

Utterly perplexing.

Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if the best offer for Tkachuk was high draft picks what this season would have looked like. There would be no Weeagar, Huberdeau, or Kadri and Monahan likely still on the team. Possibly a player like Pelletier in the lineup. The team would be considerably worse of course and probably in the Bedard sweepstakes. Things would have felt bleaker right now but I'm not sure it would have been the worst thing for the organization long term as they would have have multiple 1st round picks in a pretty good draft and a lot of cap space going forward.

[Ashasx]

I really don't think things would have felt bleaker if we took the rebuild route.

Things are as bleak as they could ever be right now with massive boat anchor contracts that have already aged poorly - one before the player has even played a game under it.

Even if we folded now, those contracts will prevent this team competing for the Cup for the next 7-8 years.

[Yikes]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if the best offer for Tkachuk was high draft picks what this season would have looked like. There would be no Weeagar, Huberdeau, or Kadri and Monahan likely still on the team. Possibly a player like Pelletier in the lineup. The team would be considerably worse of course and probably in the Bedard sweepstakes. Things would have felt bleaker right now but I'm not sure it would have been the worst thing for the organization long term as they would have have multiple 1st round picks in a pretty good draft and a lot of cap space going forward.

I think there is alot the Flames can do this year to set themselves up with a ton of cap and high picks, they have the pieces to pull it off and with the exception of Hanifin the irony is that in terms of on ice performance we won't miss any of them.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Yikes

I think there is alot the Flames can do this year to set themselves up with a ton of cap and high picks, they have the pieces to pull it off and with the exception of Hanifin the irony is that in terms of on ice performance we won't miss any of them.

I see this as the best way to move forward. I like a lot of the players that I think we can move on from but I feel the best way to fix this is get younger and add a top prospect from this years draft. Ton's of high end prospects that drafting in the top 10 even if it is late top 10 can provide us with an all star. The nest way to do this is trade a few guys for picks and bring some guys up.

Toffoli - Pelletier
Backlund - Zary
Mangiapane - Coronato/Phillips
Tanev/Hanifin - Kylington (hopefully)
Markstrom - Wolf

I'm not suggesting we need to trade all of these guys but even some could drive us in the top 5 pick discussion. This won't happen but I'm ok to move any of these guys and be comfortable with the replacement we already have in the AHL. Cap savings is around $20 mil as well and it really doesn't destroy the team if the young guys play well

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I really don't think things would have felt bleaker if we took the rebuild route.

Things are as bleak as they could ever be right now with massive boat anchor contracts that have already aged poorly - one before the player has even played a game under it.

Even if we folded now, those contracts will prevent this team competing for the Cup for the next 7-8 years.

$$$$$.

Ownership wants $$$$. You make less $$$$$ in rebuild, but if fans want true change, they need to reward rebuilds. That means stop paying the Flames until they commit to rebuild.