Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[activeStick]

It's official...

https://twitter.com/user/status/1612476995325284354

[CaptainCrunch]

Interesting that she was very careful to put that 19 billion dollars price tag on her tweet and not that full project costing. Even if we're talking about the 19 billion as a purchase price that's still a but label of 215 million per copy.

The British bought the F35B carrier for $187 dollars canadian per plane
Netherlands I think bought 36 A variants at about $174 Canadian
Australia got there's at about $130,000,000 per copy.

This is just based on the original purchase cost that Canada talks about which is 19 billion not the total operating cost s of 70 billion.

All of these nations incorporated facilities upgrades and construction and training into their initial purchase price as well.

[Ozy_Flame]

Yeah but isn't there nuance in time of purchase/volume pricing/interest rates? And as for operating costs what are the other countries you mentioned?

[activeStick]

Wouldn't the price increase over time though? When did the other countries purchase their fleet?

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Found this in the replies;

https://twitter.com/user/status/1612484864443551746

Did the government address their change in position? And, are the negative points about the F35 brought up in this video accurate?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Yeah but isn't there nuance in time of purchase/volume pricing/interest rates? And as for operating costs what are the other countries you mentioned?

Possibly, with the F-35 as they've gotten orders, as they've fullfilled orders the price tag for the jets has slid down not up.

Canada's weak loonie certainly has an effect though. I left out all operating costs, because frankly the 19 billion is for the planes, facilities upgrades, training and I think initial weapons loads etc. Same as the other ones that I put in.

The overall cost of this is about I think 70 billion over the life of the F-35, the estimated flight costs etc would be pretty similar.

When Harper bought the jets the A variant was about $175 million + (going off of memory)

The current expected cost per plane provided by Lockheed Martin for just the plane has dropped to about $89 million. Then you add on the other initial purchase prices that I talked about previously.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

Found this in the replies;

https://twitter.com/user/status/1612484864443551746

Did the government address their change in position? And, are the negative points about the F35 brought up in this video accurate?

The negative points that Trudeau bought up, not stealthy (Flat out lie). Not capable of arctic missions (Maybe accurate then but not accurate now). The whole cost increases (Pretty incorrect at the time, it was always expected that as the F-35A got deeper into the production run the costs would drop). Is the F-35A more expensive to fly then something like the F-18, well yeah, its a far more sophisticated machine, and probably one of the most complex jets to operate on the planet right now.

Are there issues with the F-35A sure, absolutely but they are now active in air forces around the world. But we have to remember that for example the development of the F-18 with plagued with a lot of problems.

Israel has deployed the F-35 in combat roles. The UK iiirc are actively using the F-35's in concert with their new carrier.

If fat amy can live up to its promise of interoperability, the ability to deploy 5th generation weapons, the stealth ability to take on advanced air defenses and its heightened situational awareness ability then it could be a good long term fighter jet with a long upgrade path which is what Canada should be taking into account.

On top of it, and I warn everyone to take performance discussions around the F-35 with a grain of salt. For the most part, very few know about the actual capabilities of the jet, just like the F-22.

[OldDutch]

Really disappointing to see Trudeau up to his usual ways on this whole “just transition”. I am sure his apologists will paint him as a environmental stalwart up against crazy Danielle Smith. However its getting harder to see this as anything but another cynical ploy of us vs them so he can solidify his base Trump style. It’s an acting part he has been playing well for a while now.

He is painting Alberta as a backwater climate change denial haven, that’s done nothing to but pollute the world. He is to save us, all if us with his plan, and if anyone has questions well shame they don’t want to take the file seriously. Oh and he won’t be reaching out to understand your view. Its not his way.

This is what the Liberals do. Be it Abortion, Race relations, environment, vaccines they wedge and divide. They cultivate opponents like Ford, Pierre, and Smith and instead of calling and collaborating they throw shots. It helps both get re elected.

Which is the point. Notley would work with them, and its not politically favorable. The environment isn’t the point.

When I voted Liberal in 2015 it was to get away from what I felt was cynical politics Harper was creating. Liberals promised a collaborative approach, yet here we are with Trudeau executing a master class on divisiveness helps win votes.

If it isn’t obvious we’re being played by now, well we deserve this guy and party.

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by stone hands

Maybe I'm not reading that right but it looks like you're using an example of a japanese company buying an overseas firm, so are you suggesting that for example, enbridge buy out an energy company in say, germany, and ship them gas that way?

More direct form of the earlier example I provided:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/japa...hina-1.6221565

Again, the point being that Canada can directly affect what happens in other countries/areas, and we shouldn't just be looking at what we're doing for our own domestic emissions. As a net energy exporter, it is entirely possible that Canada's emissions could go up but global emissions decrease as a result. That shouldn't preclude us from developing our resources.

I've said it before in this thread, but it's apparent to everybody that the global demand will be there for these products for the foreseeable future. It's just a matter of if Canada wants to step up and take that market share with its ethically produced, strictly regulated products and use those proceeds to make life better for Canadians and even help transition to a low carbon economy. If not, the likes of Russia, Qatar, etc. will gladly be there to fill the gaps.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

This is what the Liberals do. Be it Abortion, Race relations, environment, vaccines they wedge and divide. They cultivate opponents like Ford, Pierre, and Smith and instead of calling and collaborating they throw shots. It helps both get re elected.

Trudeau is the reason why Ford, PP, and Smith were elected to their positions by conservatives? That’s a new one…

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Trudeau is the reason why Ford, PP, and Smith were elected to their positions by conservatives? That’s a new one…

It is more like, those politician's are the reason Trudeau is still in power.

[CaptainCrunch]

opposition wants to take a look at outsourcing spike to Mckinsey and company consulting firm

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/poli...medium=twitter

The three main opposition parties in Parliament are planning to co-operate on an investigation into the spike in federal outsourcing contracts with the McKinsey and Company consulting firm since the Liberals formed government.
Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre and Bloc Québécois Leader Yves-François Blanchet both held news conferences on Parliament Hill Tuesday to announce that they, along with the NDP, will be supporting motions at the government operations committee to compel the production of government contracts and other documents in an effort to find out what taxpayers have received in exchange for the multi-million dollar contracts.

he Globe and Mail first reported in January 2022 that the value of outsourcing contracts to McKinsey has climbed steadily under the Liberals after federal outsourcing with the company had declined to zero in the final two fiscal years of Stephen Harper’s Conservative government.Under the Liberals, the company received $33.6-million over the five fiscal years than ended March 31, 2021. When new data was released in November, the Globe reported that the figures revealed a dramatic continuation of the trend.
During the 2021-22 fiscal year alone, McKinsey received $32.5-million, bringing the six year total to $66.1-million.

Committee members from all parties unanimously endorsed an Oct. 17 motion ordering federal departments to hand over, “in an unredacted format,” a wide range of documents related to the ArriveCan app. However, after months of delay, committee members recently learned that the Canada Broder Services Agency will not be releasing all of the requested information. Many of the documents provided to MPs by the CBSA included redactions of key information, such as pay rates for contractors and the purpose of contracts.
The committee chair has described the CBSA’s redactions as unacceptable and said MPs will be preparing follow-up requests.

Officials with McKinsey did not immediately respond to a request for comment in response to the concerns raised by opposition MPs.
The increase in federal spending with McKinsey overlapped with a period in which the government maintained close ties with Dominic Barton, who was until 2018 the firm’s head.
McKinsey is headquartered in New York City and is among the world’s largest consulting firms. Mr. Barton was an early adviser to the Trudeau government and chaired former finance minister Bill Morneau’s advisory council on economic growth while still leading the firm.
In Sept. 2019, after having left McKinsey, Mr. Barton was appointed as Canada’s ambassador to China. His foreign posting ended in December 2021.

[calculoso]

Based on the McKinsey BS that we are experiencing in my business, absolutely this should be looked into…. But not for the reasons that the opposition wants to explore.

[Fuzz]

So I read the CBC article, and I don't really see what the massive concern is. A government payed consultants money for services? PP has no evidence of anything, or even reason to believe there is something up. Like, at least come to the table with some possibility of something bad.

Radio-Canada's analysis showed that Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada (IRCC) and the Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) account for 44 per cent of federal contracts issued to the consultancy since 2015.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/mck...709036?cmp=rss

And the biggest years(the link has a graph) show them during the past 2 years, when opposition was demanding something be done about things like passports, border wait times etc. And then there is covid, requiring a lot of work on that front as well. I know it is their job to do this sort of thing, but dial back the bluster if you have nothing going in.

Also, I found this hilarious.

Poilievre said a future Conservative government led by him would get better value for money by relying less on consultants and more on the public service.

Yes, that sounds very Conservative. I'm sure it will happen, just as soon as they sell off any remaining government facility and department Harper missed.

[Northendzone]

To me it does not seem unreasonable to look at why one firm is getting so much money, but I also could understand if these are a bunch or projects that are connected.

[Azure]

So after years of stupidity by the Liberals we still buy the F-35s?

What a gong show.

At least they made the right decision in the end, but then again a 10 year old could have done that.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

So I read the CBC article, and I don't really see what the massive concern is. A government payed consultants money for services? PP has no evidence of anything, or even reason to believe there is something up. Like, at least come to the table with some possibility of something bad.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/mck...709036?cmp=rss

And the biggest years(the link has a graph) show them during the past 2 years, when opposition was demanding something be done about things like passports, border wait times etc. And then there is covid, requiring a lot of work on that front as well. I know it is their job to do this sort of thing, but dial back the bluster if you have nothing going in.

Also, I found this hilarious.



Yes, that sounds very Conservative. I'm sure it will happen, just as soon as they sell off any remaining government facility and department Harper missed.

Your dislike of PP is clear but, in this case, it's all three opposition parties. You have to recognize the credence in that. I would bet the more likely scenario is Trudeau up against the ethics committee again, apologizing, something more interesting hitting the news cycle, and everyone forgetting.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

Your dislike of PP is clear but, in this case, it's all three opposition parties. You have to recognize the credence in that. I would bet the more likely scenario is Trudeau up against the ethics committee again, apologizing, something more interesting hitting the news cycle, and everyone forgetting.

Sure, OK the NDP had a great quote too...

NDP ethics critic Matthew Green issued a statement Tuesday noting the Conservatives also awarded McKinsey $2.2 million in contracts when they were in power. He said Canadians are "disgusted" by the enormous contracts awarded under the Liberals.

"Canada has a strong public service who can do this work at a fraction of the cost, so there's no reason for Trudeau to choose to hand buckets of money to his billionaire CEO friends instead," Green said.


"This is part of a sustained campaign to undermine our public service workers. The Liberals should be ashamed of themselves."

We all know through the pandemic our public service could not handle it. I don't think it's horrible to contract out when you have unplanned one time bursts of workload where it doesn't make sense to hire a load of public sector workers for a short period. But since we don't really know what it was for, this is just speculation. So I guess we will find out, maybe.

[peter12]

An already bloated public service farming out work to consultants is a problem, but I'm not sure that it's really partisan. It's just another sign that our federal government has grown sclerotic and ineffective. This is a significant problem that all parties need to come together to address.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by peter12

An already bloated public service farming out work to consultants is a problem, but I'm not sure that it's really partisan. It's just another sign that our federal government has grown sclerotic and ineffective. This is a significant problem that all parties need to come together to address.

Absolutely right, but there's no chance that our political parties will work together to identify and address this issue. Instead they will alternate using it to attack each other, while also using the bloated budget because of all this excess to hide their handouts and political hires.

I think about this often. It would be great if you could collapse the whole bureaucracy and just start over. But, without collapsing it it's hard to understand what parts are absolutely vital to the functioning of our nation and what's just along for the ride.