[PGT] Chicago beats Calgary in OT

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Remind me where they sit in the standings Bingo because all that stuff you listed means absolutely nothing. They are slow, they are a perimeter shooting team and they look just like the Kings teams that missed the playoffs in the back half of his tenure there and remember even the cup winning teams weren't regular season juggernauts. The margins are simply slim with his coaching. Goaltending has to be very good and shooters very opportunistic or every game is a struggle. The plus of all this is that they are more prepared for playoff hockey where things don't come as easy because they are used to having to scratch and claw to win games. They need to ensure they get there to reward fans for sticking with this kind of hockey. It's not pretty but fans will accept it as long as it's effective in generating wins.

Oh man ... the weakest of all arguments.

Do you honestly think I'm not aware of the standings? They're everywhere and easy to look up.

They are the result, and not the cause.

If you don't want to dig any further don't ... and clearly you can't because if you did your second phrase bolded would be refuted.

Personally I like to know the how and the why in hockey, but if you want to remain superficial and essentially wrong fill your boots.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

General comment

SN was showing the Flames record over the last month and half and it was solid. I can't remember the numbers, but the 6-2-2 record over their last 10 is reflective of the that timeframe. 6-2-2 is 70% points percentage which is great, but it's unspectacular. It's unspectacular because all year, it's win 2, lose 1, lose an OT, over and over again. They can't seem to go on a heater. The Flames have 2 x 3 game winning streaks. They need to bang off a 5 or 6 gamer.

[cannon7]

Haven't been down on Markstrom this season. But would sure be nice if he stole one this season. Not asking for much, just one game. Instead it is just hoping he doesn't let in three or more. Not that the team in front of him was doing him any favors last night.

[HighLifeMan]

Don't the analytics corroborate exactly what EE is saying? A low team shooting percentage, and an inability to consistently generate high danger chances despite having the puck for the majority of most nights suggests to me that the system first and foremost gravitates towards low percentage plays and high shot volume. There is a legitimate argument to be made that this team as it's constructed would be better off focusing on creating through the middle of the ice and off of transition. These two things coincidentally happen to be the strengths of our off-season acquisitions who for the most part are massively underachieving under Sutter. During his six year period as head coach in LA the organization had the lowest shooting percentage in the NHL (5 on 5). This is not an anomaly.

This team has 19 wins half way through the season. It's not all roses and rainbows and criticism's of this team and coaching staff are warranted to some extent.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

Don't the analytics corroborate exactly what EE is saying? A low team shooting percentage, and an inability to consistently generate high danger chances despite having the puck for the majority of most nights suggests to me that the system first and foremost gravitates towards low percentage plays and high shot volume. There is a legitimate argument to be made that this team as it's constructed would be better off focusing on creating through the middle of the ice and off of transition. These two things coincidentally happen to be the strengths of our off-season acquisitions who for the most part are massively underachieving under Sutter. During his six year period as head coach in LA the organization had the lowest shooting percentage in the NHL (5 on 5). This is not an anomaly.

This team has 19 wins half way through the season. It's not all roses and rainbows and criticism's of this team and coaching staff are warranted to some extent.

Nope.

He said something to the effect of slow, plodding, tie up the opposition, shooting from the perimeter

teams that are ranked 6th in xGF% and 9th in SCF% aren't the above.

I do think they lack the individual skill to up the HD rates, but that doesn't make them slow and plodding, and perimeter.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Nope.

He said something to the effect of slow, plodding, tie up the opposition, shooting from the perimeter

teams that are ranked 6th in xGF% and 9th in SCF% aren't the above.

I do think they lack the individual skill to up the HD rates, but that doesn't make them slow and plodding, and perimeter.

A low team shooting % and lack of consistent high danger chance creation in combination with high shot volume certainly suggests perimeter play to me, or at the very least a diversion from making the high risk/high reward play.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

A low team shooting % and lack of consistent high danger chance creation in combination with high shot volume certainly suggests perimeter play to me, or at the very least a diversion from making the high risk/high reward play.

Actual stat says they are top 9 in the NHL for shots in the home plate area.

Not sure how much more clear that can be that they're not a perimeter team.

[cam_wmh]

Do the Flames give Dustin Wolf an honest look and call-up? As has been mentioned by others, he's dominating the A right now.

Detriments:
The optics won't be pleasant to Markstrom, obviously.
Vladar, may feel slighted also.
The pressure could stunt, Wolf's development.
The Wranglers, start losing games more often, with Dansk taking the lead; potentially falling out of a playoff spot.


Honestly, I'm really only worried about the first point. We're just getting out of our last anchor contract, in Lucic (although I want him back for $1m). Hopefully, Markstrom wouldn't be too affected. Conversely, recall when Sutter last brought in a 3rd goalie, when his starter injured his knee...

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Do the Flames give Dustin Wolf an honest look and call-up? As has been mentioned by others, he's dominating the A right now.

Only if Markstrom or Vladar get hurt. He'll probably get called up again at the end of the season and will hopefully get a game or two in this time.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Only if Markstrom or Vladar get hurt. He'll probably get called up again at the end of the season and will hopefully get a game or two in this time.

I'd rather give him an honest call-up, vs the reward for an awesome season and a financial bonus.

There was an advanced stat that I believe Bingo shared at one point, into goals saved vs allowed. I'd love to see it once again, as my eye test may have bias, but to me, Markstrom seems to have cost us points more often than earned em.

[Manhattanboy]

What’s the point of getting all upset?

They are simply not very good as a team. To a man, with the odd exception in one off games, they have all underperformed.

The replacements haven’t worked out as planned. Not even close. Maybe things will change. Maybe not.

They desperately miss 13 and 19. They are boring to watch.

But hey as a Flames fan until they are officially eliminated you remain hopeful. It’s all you can do.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

I'd rather give him an honest call-up, vs the reward for an awesome season and a financial bonus.

There was an advanced stat that I believe Bingo shared at one point, into goals saved vs allowed. I'd love to see it once again, as my eye test may have bias, but to me, Markstrom seems to have cost us points more often than earned em.

You can find Goals saved above expected here.
https://moneypuck.com/goalies.htm

I set minimum games played at 20 and that places Markstrom at 16th out of 28 in the data set.
Middle of the road.

[Burning Beard]

Before the season started it seemed like most fans were saying this team wouldn't have as good of a regular season as last year but is better built for Sutter hockey and the playoffs. Now this exact thing is happening but fans are upset.

[Dion]

The Flames have a bad habit of playing down to the level of their opponent.

[Always Earned Never Given]

No idea where to put this but every game people seem to talk about how unlucky Flames are by hitting iron.

I don't know how to extract it per team (on NHL site) so I did it per player and then combined in Excel per team. A few players had been traded so does not indicate for what team they hit iron (only a couple so..).

Anyways here are the results from most to least oh and Ottawa come on curved those sticks a little more or less... 1 Cross bar? Really?


Team Total Post Cross
FLA 44 32 12
NYR 44 38 6
WSH 44 34 10
CGY 43 36 7
SEA 41 32 9
BUF 39 33 6
EDM 37 33 4
TBL 37 27 10
COL 36 28 8
NSH 36 31 5
VAN 36 26 10
SJS 34 28 6
MTL 33 25 8
NJD 33 26 7
WPG 33 31 2
MIN 32 29 3
VGK 32 24 8
BOS 30 25 5
OTT 30 29 1
PIT 29 26 3
CBJ 28 24 4
ANA 27 17 10
TOR 27 23 4
CAR 26 23 3
STL 26 17 9
DAL 25 19 6
NYI 25 17 8
PHI 24 21 3
LAK 23 19 4
ARI 20 16 4
DET 20 15 5
CHI 18 16 2

[saillias]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

Before the season started it seemed like most fans were saying this team wouldn't have as good of a regular season as last year but is better built for Sutter hockey and the playoffs. Now this exact thing is happening but fans are upset.

Ok but that argument was always major cope. There is no team building strategy where you are slightly worse in the regular season for the benefit of being a bigger threat in the post season. Sutter's 2012 Kings is not a repeatable model, it was an anomaly. They were the only 8th seed to win the Cup in NHL history. actually according to google - first pro sports team ever to win a championship as the 8th seed.

Besides, being on a knife's edge between playoff team and non-playoff team is obviously emotionally turbulent.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Oh man ... the weakest of all arguments.

Do you honestly think I'm not aware of the standings? They're everywhere and easy to look up.

They are the result, and not the cause.

If you don't want to dig any further don't ... and clearly you can't because if you did your second phrase bolded would be refuted.

Personally I like to know the how and the why in hockey, but if you want to remain superficial and essentially wrong fill your boots.

You are obsessed with the stats and that's fine and all but I'm not the kind of fan that will feel better about mediocrity and poor play because some underlying statistics may paint a rosier picture. Realize not every fan cares about the how and why their team lost to the worst team in the league. They are simply upset about the result. None of this "I'm right and you are wrong" really matters to me as the standings are all I care about.

[dino7c]

People also act like the team never lost a game with Gaudreau/Tkachuk

Short memories I guess, that old core had a great regular season last year but as recently as the year before totally choked and couldn't beat the Sens to get in the playoffs.

In Gaudreau's 8 seasons 5 playoff wins is the best they did...it's certainly possible this core does better than that.

Vezina Markstrom and no injuries last season is as big a factor as anything.

They blew a point last night for sure

6-2-2 in their last 10

People can be pissed if they want but comments like "this isn't a playoff team" and they were "dominated in HD chances" probably should be called out. This game didn't decide their playoff fate and they certainly were not dominated in HD chances.

Nobody is going to argue that they are finishing enough but to say they aren't getting the HD looks is wrong because they certainly are.

They have also been playing over .600 hockey since December, despite losing a point things seem to be going in the right direction

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by MillerTime GFG

What I’m calling you out on is the fact you’re calling negative posters irrational, when all the evidence suggests otherwise. But call a negative post a tantrum…sure.

Like I said, I came into the thread and people were cussing and swearing. You only have to go back and re-read to see that some people were going overboard with some of their comments. You dont think that is being a little irrational. I can recall when some trolls used to sit in the pgt and start spewing a bunch of negative stuff trying to get other posters to take the bait and the forum back then was intolerable and made it hard to enjoy reading about the team. The Flames lost a game, so what does being negative accomplish? Does it make the team play better?

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Oh man ... based on what?



Slow, plodding, perimeter based team?



They can't finish and they don't generate enough ten bell chances, but they're metrics suggest they carry the play most nights, and have more going that just shot volume.



This isn't Jacque Demers trap hockey at all.



Why the narrative?



3rd in CF60

2nd in CA60

9th in SCF%

6th in expected goal splits



They're biggest issues are not generating enough high danger (15th for / 7th against) and a 24th ranked shooting percentage.



I guess some see what they want to see.

It's the same misconceptions that people have placed on Sutter hockey forever. I know, he changed everything just this past summer!