Flames Mount Rushmore Round Three

[Samonadreau]

Fleury would be hands down #3 for me if he wasnt such an asshat.

Still picking him here.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

Initially I hadn't considered Giordano in my top 4, but then someone summarized his time here in Calgary and what really stood out was that he was the only Flame in the history of the franchise to win a Norris which is remarkable. He is also the only NHL player to ever win the Muhammad Ali Sports Humanitarian Award. These two things bumped him from not in my top 4 to #3 for me.

Gio is interesting because he was at least as much a "face of the team" as Fleury, and moreso than Kipper, MacInnis, etc. And he had such an interesting career path. Fleury and Gaudreau gets mentioned for being such late picks. Gio wasn't a pick at all. And he had to go play in the KHL for a while. Then he had to step into Iggy's shoes as C and he did OK IMO. Won an individual award which only Iginla and Kipper had done previously (aside from those early Calders, none of whom are in consideration except maybe Newy).

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

He's 3rd all-time in NHL points for a defensman.

Has a Conn Smythe (Bourque doesn't, Coffey doesn't)

Renowned slap shot, great at both ends of the ice.

I never gave it much thought till now but I suppose I'd go with Orr, Lidstrom, Bourque, Coffey, MacInnes.

Conn Smythe is incredibly important but doesn't carry a whole bunch of weight for me in the greatest ever conversation. Cam Ward, JS Giguere, Bill Ranford certainly aren't in the great goalie conversations.

Macinnis is probably around 20 to 25 for greatest D men IMO. Potvin gets underrated because of his contemporaries as does Brad Park. And Doug Harvey is one of the all time greats of the game. Eddie Shore too.

Chelios, Pronger, Robinson, Lapointe, Leetch, Chara the list goes on.

NHL.com did rank him 11th in the expansion era, which I would argue is a little high and over emphasizes stats and offense. But don't really see how you could go any higher and that doesn't include previous era.

Yes his defensive game was underrated, but it also got better as he got older.

But top 5 all time?

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Conn Smythe is incredibly important but doesn't carry a whole bunch of weight for me in the greatest ever conversation. Cam Ward, JS Giguere, Bill Ranford certainly aren't in the great goalie conversations.

Macinnis is probably around 20 to 25 for greatest D men IMO. Potvin gets underrated because of his contemporaries as does Brad Park. And Doug Harvey is one of the all time greats of the game. Eddie Shore too.

Chelios, Pronger, Robinson, Lapointe, Leetch, Chara the list goes on.

NHL.com did rank him 11th in the expansion era, which I would argue is a little high and over emphasizes stats and offense. But don't really see how you could go any higher and that doesn't include previous era.

Yes his defensive game was underrated, but it also got better as he got older.

But top 5 all time?

It seems weird that you'd take the defenseman with the 3rd most points all-time and drop him down to 25th all-time in the ranking

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by rogermexico

I'd put MacInnis right at number ten all time, after Orr, Lidstrom, Bourque, Harvey, Robinson, Potvin, Park, and Coffey (in something like that order.) To me he's just ahead of a tier of guys like Pronger, Stevens, Niedermayer, Chelios, Savard, and Leetch.
But heck, even if you rank him behind those names, we're still talking about a top twenty all time player at the position, who played here for more than 800 games, which included a Conn Smythe for the franchise's only cup.

I think Makar and Hedman have an argument for top 10 placement right now.

[Bandwagon Surfer]

Originally Posted by BlindMilwaukee

Eras and ages are for sure a real thing with voting here.

I myself wasn’t born yet when Lanny lifted the Stanley Cup for the Flames.

But I can certainly appreciate what he has done for the Flames, for the HOF, and continues to do in the community.

He was my second vote after Iggy.

Lanny is such a good example for how important off ice is for being a Mount Rushmore style ambassador to the Flames.



I am old enough to remember the cup win, but many of my siblings and their partners are not old enough. Yet when I brought this question up with them at the pub last night, they all mentioned Lanny.



Why? They all had great experiences of Lanny as a kid. Nothing to do with his career or hoisting the cup, all from his off ice work after he retired.

[rogermexico]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think Makar and Hedman have an argument for top 10 placement right now.

Hedman I can see. I think that assuming Makar keeps on the same course he could get there, but I think we need to see more of the career play out. But he's on track for really great things I think, yes.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think Makar and Hedman have an argument for top 10 placement right now.

Makar does not have a big enough body of work for that. I'd bet he gets there and could easily become a top 5 based on his skill set... but if his play fell off a cliff right now until he retired, he wouldn't make any list.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by VilleN

Makar does not have a big enough body of work for that. I'd bet he gets there and could easily become a top 5 based on his skill set... but if his play fell off a cliff right now until he retired, he wouldn't make any list.

My point I guess is that, if you were starting a team right now, you'd take him over a whole bunch of those guys in their respective primes.

[Flamesfan05]

Kipper

Lanny had 1 great year , the rest he was like the queen

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Sitter dragged this team from the depths of mediocrity to being as close as any team to a contender. I get that Fleury was the face of a franchise but he was also the face of one of the worst periods of the Flames existence. The fact that afterwards he has slandered the franchise, become an idiot on social media, and has been trying his best to discredit himself in the process makes it hard to celebrate his playing career with the Flames, which is a true shame because he could have been celebrated for his achievements on and off the ice but alas.

Him wearing a fans jersey will always be a highlight of the dark years though. That and being able to get upper bowl seats and walk down to any section of the Saddledome.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

My point I guess is that, if you were starting a team right now, you'd take him over a whole bunch of those guys in their respective primes.

One way to look at it. Maybe I’d take 17 year old Bedard over a bunch of HHOFers when they were 17 too.

But when talking all time greats you have to take accomplishments over potential IMO.

[Enoch Root]

Kipper

MacInnes is not close to top 5 IMO (which is not a slight on him in any way)

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

It seems weird that you'd take the defenseman with the 3rd most points all-time and drop him down to 25th all-time in the ranking

Well I said 20 to 25 so let's keep it real.

If you only want to look at offense, where would he rank? Maybe 4 or 5? Behind Orr, Coffey, Bourque and Potvin? Maybe even Karlsson?

Defensively speaking he might be underrated, but he's also not in the group with Lidstrom, Harvey, Shore, Robinson, Niedermayer, Chelios and many others.

Like the greatest players he could play both ends of the ice and he was a great, great player. He'd be close with Brad Park, one of my all time favorites.

I suspect if I did a list he'd be around 20. Hard to compare to previous era but can't ignore players who were widely recognized as the best in the game.

Would you put him ahead of Langway?

[looooob]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Would you put him ahead of Langway?

I would


defensive specialists are a tricky discussion. (same thing when you ponder Bob Gainey)


Like I get they have (immense)value, but also value that is harder to measure. what I do know is that MacInnis (who IMO was a damn good defensive dman from about 86 onwards) had 1000 more points that Langway. so do I think Langway made that up by leading to 1000 less goals against ( ok admittedly sort of a crude measure) , I don't , but maybe he did

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by looooob

my memory is the night of the trade. the Flames played that night and my dad picked me up at the Ctrain afterwards


Dad "The Flames just acquired Mullen"


Looooob "for who"


"Beers, Bourgeois, Cavallini.."


"and who else?"


"no-one else in fact we got some other guys too"


both "diabolical laughter"

Yeah I was at the game too ...

Will never forget Bob Johnson playing with the ashtray (there's a sign of the times) and Fletcher rolling out the trade in an order that had everyone thinking we got fleeced.

"Flames have traded Paul Cavalinni, Charlie Bourgeois and Eddy Beers to the St. Louis Blues for defenseman Rik Wilson, defenseman Terry Johnson ... and winger .... Joey Mullen"

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Kipper

Lanny had 1 great year , the rest he was like the queen

34 goals in 55 games the year he was acquired seemed ... kinda ... good

[looooob]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah I was at the game too ...

Will never forget Bob Johnson playing with the ashtray (there's a sign of the times) and Fletcher rolling out the trade in an order that had everyone thinking we got fleeced.

"Flames have traded Paul Cavalinni, Charlie Bourgeois and Eddy Beers to the St. Louis Blues for defenseman Rik Wilson, defenseman Terry Johnson ... and winger .... Joey Mullen"

so much to like about that 86 season (too bad Steve Simmons co-wrote the book)


I know its the nostalgia talking , but man a new team that was loved in the City but looking for next level relevance...they go on a horrid losing streak...GM holds tight...rookie goalie turns the corner ( on a team that had several important rookies- Vernon, Otto, Suter, even Berezan), then the GM pulls out 2 epic trades, one for a HOFer the other for a famous cup winner. then the rookie dman has a game for the ages in late regular season, Flames vanquish Oilers for first time in forever in a regular season game , confidence engaged..


too bad they ran out of bodies in that playoff

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by looooob

I would


defensive specialists are a tricky discussion. (same thing when you ponder Bob Gainey)


Like I get they have (immense)value, but also value that is harder to measure. what I do know is that MacInnis (who IMO was a damn good defensive dman from about 86 onwards) had 1000 more points that Langway. so do I think Langway made that up by leading to 1000 less goals against ( ok admittedly sort of a crude measure) , I don't , but maybe he did

Yeah it's a tough one. Langway has two Norris Trophies on his shelf. Which is a subjective vote obviously, but we are talking about an award that is historically biased in favor of offensive production so that says something.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

One way to look at it. Maybe I’d take 17 year old Bedard over a bunch of HHOFers when they were 17 too.

But when talking all time greats you have to take accomplishments over potential IMO.

I said Makar versus those players in their prime (eg Bourque at his best).

I'm saying Makar is a better player right now than someone of those guys ever were. Career accomplishments are another thing of course.