[News] Zohorna recalled. Phillips and DeSimone assigned to Wranglers

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I might be wrong here but from what I can tell Kylington, Mangiapane, and Dube were all recalled and sent down at least four times if not more.

Well, first of all, I said 'supports' and 'likely'

But to your post - would be interesting to know what the numbers for each of them actually are.

[FanIn80]

All I'm saying is maybe one of the winningest NHL coaches of all time, with a career .519 playoff winning % and 2 cups to his name, might be a better judge of what he needs than some of you guys.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Well, first of all, I said 'supports' and 'likely'

But to your post - would be interesting to know what the numbers for each of them actually are.

Oh I know, didn’t say you were wrong just had a sudden interest in what is “typical” for a guy who is good but not a potential star coming out of the draft.

Capfriendly has a transactions list but it’s hard to remember the context of the call-ups. And obvious Kylington was on the taxi squad so you have to remove like 15 transactions lol.

But I do feel like it takes a few rounds in the show before guys start to stick (unless they make it right out of the draft/college). I haven’t seen anything NHL wise to show that Phillips can stick permanently but he does seem close.

[Bingo]

I hope the Flames don't get it wrong on Matthew Phillips and he goes on to be a star. Would think we can all agree on that.

He could be an example of poor development.

But for now I'm still waiting on that list I asked for three weeks ago ... where are the players that should have been recalled in Calgary but were not, walked and became impact players in other cities?

Without that list there really isn't a leg to stand on in my opinion.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

has this been proven though?

I don't think it has

if every player had 2 meaningful games playing a depth role to determine whether they're "viable" nhl prospects or not, most current nhlers would have been cut loose

stature didnt appear to be an obstacle in his two games either. he was quick and made plays without issue

Proven to us, no.

Proven in the minds of Calgary's management team?

Absolutely. They have judged him based on hundred's of games etc. They would tell us that they don't need to see how he actually performs in the NHL, they have seen enough to know.

If other GM's thought that Philips had the potential to be a viable NHL player, they would trade for him. Surely Calgary would let him go for a mid-round draft pick.

[Cain]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I hope the Flames don't get it wrong on Matthew Phillips and he goes on to be a star. Would think we can all agree on that.

He could be an example of poor development.

But for now I'm still waiting on that list I asked for three weeks ago ... where are the players that should have been recalled in Calgary but were not, walked and became impact players in other cities?

Without that list there really isn't a leg to stand on in my opinion.

I'll note that I'm sitting, so standing isn't always necessary!


I'd contend that he could be an example of poor development without that list as well. There is always a first clear failure, so the lack of obvious past misplays doesn't negate the possibility of this being one. I'd also say that "development" is a pretty muddy thing at the best of times. I am sure that there are many players that have received a disproportionately sized chance (for better or worse) to show their stuff before they either did or failed, and that there is not always a compelling reason for it. It is an inexact science at the best of times.


Zadorov even mentioned that he felt he has made big strides this year, and he has been in the NHL a long time now. Development isn't linear and it is tough to say what could be around the corner for a multitude of players. That isn't to say they can all have long and extended "tryout" times or something like that, there simply isn't enough time to give to everyone for something like that and it is too competitive a league anyway. But if you were to give an extended look to someone, a guy who has led the next best league in points may be that guy.


Long way to say I see both sides of the argument, but am definitely in favor of giving some ice time to a guy like Philips over some of the other options for our 4th line. Doesn't seem like it will happen which is too bad, but I'll hope he finds a place that does give him that shot.

[Bingo]

On the Scorp thing ...

I don't think he has to be a journalist when he's a hockey fan on a website. I think you can park the first to become the second.

With that said if you walk out a bias people who read you on here are going to look for and likely see that when you write as well. Maybe that's good for your writing though? Hard to know I guess.

But I don't see slander etc. If we can't have opinions on how the team plays, operates and makes decisions this site ceases to exist.

[AFireInside]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I hope the Flames don't get it wrong on Matthew Phillips and he goes on to be a star. Would think we can all agree on that.

He could be an example of poor development.

But for now I'm still waiting on that list I asked for three weeks ago ... where are the players that should have been recalled in Calgary but were not, walked and became impact players in other cities?

Without that list there really isn't a leg to stand on in my opinion.

Do they need to be stars though? I don't think Phillips needs to be a star. If he ended up being a 50pt buy I think people would be quite happy. I've never thought he was the answer, but he deserves a fair shot and he didn't get it. Not even close.

If this team was scoring more, etc, I wouldn't really question it as much, but with their lack of scoring, and putting Lucic on the second line, it's difficult to watch (I still don't think the Lucic experiment will last, but I'd love to be wrong on that one).

[Jiri Hrdina]

I think if Scorp is linking to his social media accounts or articles on FN, then it's fair to criticize his work as a journalist. If it's just his posts on this site, then I think he should be dealt with as a fan like we all are.

On MP, the reality is that players like him are very rare in the NHL. Doesn't mean he can't make it, but guys with his physical stature are VERY rare. The bigger thing is that Sutter teams play a heavy game. So that's an attribute he values in players. One doesn't have to agree with that, but I think it only make sense that if Darryl Sutter is your coach, that you give Darryl Sutter a roster that suits his approach.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by AFireInside

Do they need to be stars though? I don't think Phillips needs to be a star. If he ended up being a 50pt buy I think people would be quite happy. I've never thought he was the answer, but he deserves a fair shot and he didn't get it. Not even close.

If this team was scoring more, etc, I wouldn't really question it as much, but with their lack of scoring, and putting Lucic on the second line, it's difficult to watch (I still don't think the Lucic experiment will last, but I'd love to be wrong on that one).

But it's been better of late no? The team is playing better, scoring more, and getting more wins. And they are getting more out of Hubredeau. I don't think Lucic on the 2nd line can be the long-term plan, and I assume right now Ruzicka will eventually make it back. But right now it's working more than it's not working isn't it?

The likelihood that MP is a 50 point player in the NHL or even a 40 point player is VERY small.

[AFireInside]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I actually said when his contract was up, but okay, whatever lets you sleep at night. If he gets an NHL contract this summer I'll let you crow about how wrong I was. Until then, hang your hat on this callup over the Christmas break where he played a whopping 18:04 and played 26 shifts. But also recognize that he probably ate more hot dogs than he had shifts during his "recall." He had opportunity - more than I thought the team would give him - and he didn't perform. I'll let you beat me up when he get's that next one-way contract with an NHL team and scores that first NHL goal. I promise. I will seek you out to rub it in my face.

Don't disagree. If this is really how you feel then get on the "fire Treliving and Sutter" trains. Nothing is going to change in this regard until they are either gone, or their hands are forced, which likely means they will be gone because they will step down. You're going to have to accept the reality we face here. The small players in the system are fighting an uphill battle and will have to be supermen to get the attention of the guy behind the bench. So far he hasn't seen anything that tickles his fancy.

He looked dangerous on the pp, hitting the post, and then barely played. He didn't get a fair shake, and I'm not someone that thinks he was likely to be our saviour, but I wanted to see a decent sample.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Everyone's line for what is a "fair opportunity" is subjective.
We can agree he got AN opportunity, whether it was enough or not is tough to say.
Darryl Sutter cares about Ws so he's going to put out the group that he thinks gives him the best chance at that.

[PepsiFree]

It wouldn’t surprise me at all to see him get another call-up and more games down the stretch. I think everyone would be happy to see what he can do with more time, save for maybe the few individuals who have become strangely obsessive about stating Phillip’s lack of future.

[AFireInside]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

But it's been better of late no? The team is playing better, scoring more, and getting more wins. And they are getting more out of Hubredeau. I don't think Lucic on the 2nd line can be the long-term plan, and I assume right now Ruzicka will eventually make it back. But right now it's working more than it's not working isn't it?

The likelihood that MP is a 50 point player in the NHL or even a 40 point player is VERY small.

Again, I've said repeatedly that I don't think he was the answer, but he also doesn't need to be a star, was the point.

Are we scoring that much more?

If you exclude those 2 SJ games, in the month of December we scored about 2.6 goals per game. Based on average goals per game in the NHL that would put us in the bottom 5 for goals for. Excluding SJ, our previous 5 games is exactly the same number.

I put little stock in those SJ games. We just came off a 1 goal game in Edmonton. We had nearly 45 shots last night and struggled to get 3. I like Lucic, and I don't think Phillips was our answer, but he didn't get a fair shot, and I also don't think Lucic is a long term plan.

This team is still struggling to score, but Huberdeau and Kadri certainly look better than they did with Mangiapane on their line. So that's a good sign.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Why are you excluding the San Jose games? You are immediately biasing your results.
"If we exclude games where they scored more, they are scoring less..."

[AFireInside]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Why are you excluding the San Jose games? You are immediately biasing your results.
"If we exclude games where they scored more, they are scoring less..."

The Sharks are barely an NHL team. Those games are outliers. That isn't biasing my results. We could remove the two lowest scoring games we had as well if that makes you feel better.

3 games in a row against the 2 of the teams in the top 3 for goals against probably isn't a good indicator of whether this team is struggling to score, just like the opposite wouldn't be indicative of a team that's struggling to score.

[Jiri Hrdina]

It is unless you are also eliminating "outliers" where they didn't score much for similarly arbitrary reasons. What you are doing is the very definition of biasing your results.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by AFireInside

The Sharks are barely an NHL team. Those games are outliers. That isn't biasing my results.

Naturally, though, you’d have to at very least remove games played against the Sharks for every other team as well. To be close to meaningful, you’d probably just remove every team’s top two scores and bottom two scores as well, and ensure all of the games played were the same.

I know what you were getting at and agree with the premise, but you can’t just alter Calgary’s calculation and then slot them into the rest of the league without changing anything else.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by jayswin

The accusations and discussion of possible defamation or libel by a poster for criticizing a coach for how players are handled and reading into what the motivations of said coach could be is possibly the stupidest thing I've ever seen on this site.

Agreed - right up there with the opinion that "Lucic is the worst player in the NHL."

[SuperMatt18]

To me I see a guy that was given NHL games but not really an opportunity. To me my concern is I look at him and think his career path could easily follow that of Jonathan Marchessault.

Coming into the 15-16 season Marchessault was 24 years old (same age as Phillips now) and had very comparable AHL numbers to Phillips.

Marchessault: 5 seasons, 306 GP, 98 G, 263 P, 0.86 PPG

Phillips: 5 seasons, 220 GP, 84 G, 194 P, 0.88 PPG

At that point in his career and despite consistent AHL production, Marchessault had 4 NHL games under his belt (Phillips is at 3 right now)

Tampa gave Marchessault a look in the second half of the 15-16 season and he had 7 goals, 18 points in 45 games in limited ice time. The underlying rates were great though (55.8 xGF and 1.62 points per 60 in 9 minutes at 5v5 per game)

Marchessault was able to walk as a UFA after the season (similar to Phillips he was able to be UFA at 25 when this season ends), Tampa wanted to keep him but Florida promised more opportunities.

Funnily enough it was actually a Huberdeau injury that gave him top 6 minutes in Florida to start that season and he took off with a 30 goal, 50 point year. Florida didn’t think he would replicate it, and were crazy and made that terrible move with Vegas to give them Smith and Marchessault and he’s been great ever since.

To me they are similar players too. Primarily playmakers but good shots and can finish around the net, both are good skaters with a knack to get behind defensemen even if they don’t have elite speed, strong with the puck if not overly flashy (neither is Gaudreau with the puck), and both not afraid to mix it up in the dirty areas a little.

In both cases people thought they would be too small for that skill set to translate at the NHL level.

It’s more likely Phillips becomes nothing at the NHL level for sure, but it’s interesting because it’s rare to see a guy who’s had his production at the AHL level under the age of 25…who hasn’t had at least 30-50 NHL games to see if there is something there at that point.

And Phillips has looked fine in his three games with a 71.8% on ice xGF and generating high danger chances at a good clip. For a team that desperately needs a top 9 RH RW it just seems so stubborn and almost petty at this point (that ridiculous answer to the question about Phillips screams petty to Me) by Sutter to refuse to just give him even a 5 game look.