12-20-2022, 03:06 PM
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#221
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Income Tax Central
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandman
I think if you're the 7th D on a team like the Arizona Coyotes, doesn't that put you in the same class as "glorified AHLer"?
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I wouldnt necessarily say "glorified AHLer" but you're not wrong.
How much better is he than a bare-bones, ELC replacement player? As someone said above, if his salary hadnt been the $1.5M and he was still cheaper he'd probably still be here.
That is one of those things that young players really have to think about during contract negotiations. Until you're established you really need to make it as easy as humanly possible for Management to put you in the lineup, especially on a cap-crunched team.
You sort of have to bet on yourself and take a little less in the short-term.
Because unless you're significantly out-performing your cap hit they're probably going to have to replace you.
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12-20-2022, 03:43 PM
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#222
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke
I wouldnt necessarily say "glorified AHLer" but you're not wrong.
How much better is he than a bare-bones, ELC replacement player? As someone said above, if his salary hadnt been the $1.5M and he was still cheaper he'd probably still be here.
That is one of those things that young players really have to think about during contract negotiations. Until you're established you really need to make it as easy as humanly possible for Management to put you in the lineup, especially on a cap-crunched team.
You sort of have to bet on yourself and take a little less in the short-term.
Because unless you're significantly out-performing your cap hit they're probably going to have to replace you.
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I take it as a lesson in take the money while you can. He’d be on league min and then potentially out of the league after his contract is up. I don’t think he’d have much value even if the Coyotes retained and offers him up.
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12-20-2022, 03:58 PM
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#223
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Franchise Player
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Valimaki accepting less money on his last contract would do nothing for his NHL career other than having less money in his pocket.
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12-20-2022, 03:58 PM
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#224
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonded
I take it as a lesson in take the money while you can. He’d be on league min and then potentially out of the league after his contract is up. I don’t think he’d have much value even if the Coyotes retained and offers him up.
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He potentially lost an opportunity for NHL deployment last year, partly because of cap hit. If he had been given that opportunity and did well, it would go a long way to helping him negotiate his next contract. It could potentially cost him millions in career earnings since now, he is going to be negotiating with few games and coming from a team that likely isn't helping his personal stats much.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
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12-20-2022, 04:03 PM
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#225
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Owner
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary
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If he does go on waivers (he's still in the every day lineup so that's no imminent) would the Flames put in a claim for him?
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12-20-2022, 04:10 PM
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#226
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo
If he does go on waivers (he's still in the every day lineup so that's no imminent) would the Flames put in a claim for him?
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Interesting question. I doubt it, with the current IR activity eating away at their cap space. Also, they have the Rooney situation on the books - might not be too keen on the risk of having a second one.
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12-20-2022, 04:14 PM
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#227
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Calgary, Canada
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It's a fine balance between getting paid what your actually worth and playing well and another thing to get cocky or force managements hand by a cap crunched club.
Valimaki was in a rough position regardless but how often do player agents really get honest with players and really discuss some of the truth?
Was Valimaki really in a position of strength in regards to his contract? Could he have benefited from being a better value guy while still making what is a very good salary and being in the league? He is playing with Arizona and they were the only team to put a claim in, so in essence, he is what a lot of people may think as an AHL caliber player.
I don't know if agents sometimes have their clients overall career and total financial future in their best interest. I see what happened with Johnny and think that that side completely overplayed their hand by a significant amount. Johnny can say all he wants about loving Columbus but being closer to home, on a better team and with a somewhat better deal than he got if they had given some of his preferred teams time to make a trade and sign deal work.
Rhett Warener always talks about some tough contract dealings with Daryl Sutter going down the drain quickly with his agent, and when he got word that the deal was about to break, it a panic situation. "What, were saying no to $2.5 mil while playing in Calgary, near friends and family in SK. Let me talk to the GM myself"
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12-20-2022, 04:15 PM
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#228
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Calgary, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo
If he does go on waivers (he's still in the every day lineup so that's no imminent) would the Flames put in a claim for him?
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Perhaps Edmonton? I know it doesn't look good but what do they have to lose?
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12-20-2022, 04:21 PM
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#229
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Income Tax Central
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo
If he does go on waivers (he's still in the every day lineup so that's no imminent) would the Flames put in a claim for him?
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I dont think we can afford him or we probably wouldnt have moved him in the first place.
__________________
The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!
This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
The World Ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. - Flames Fans
If you thought this season would have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.
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12-20-2022, 04:28 PM
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#230
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curves2000
Valimaki was in a rough position regardless but how often do player agents really get honest with players and really discuss some of the truth?
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It happens occasionally with qualifying offers for RFAs, where the player declines their more expensive QO, and sign for lower salaries. Some players and agents are smart and know when there is a lot of competition, they need that little bit of extra to entice the team.
Often it comes with insisting on a one-way contract that pays them the same in the AHL. That way, it is a double incentive. They make themselves a cheap option for the NHL roster, but an expensive option for the AHL. If the competition is tight and choosing who makes it is hair splitting, it gives them the edge. Then hopefully they capitalize on their next contract.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
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12-20-2022, 05:14 PM
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#231
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction
He potentially lost an opportunity for NHL deployment last year, partly because of cap hit. If he had been given that opportunity and did well, it would go a long way to helping him negotiate his next contract. It could potentially cost him millions in career earnings since now, he is going to be negotiating with few games and coming from a team that likely isn't helping his personal stats much.
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I don't think the partial deployment would have helped him that much from what he has shown. He looked like he was going to be a top 4 d after his brief Liiga stint and then basically sucked in the NHL and looked mediocre in the AHL.
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12-20-2022, 10:42 PM
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#232
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Participant 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction
It happens occasionally with qualifying offers for RFAs, where the player declines their more expensive QO, and sign for lower salaries. Some players and agents are smart and know when there is a lot of competition, they need that little bit of extra to entice the team.
Often it comes with insisting on a one-way contract that pays them the same in the AHL. That way, it is a double incentive. They make themselves a cheap option for the NHL roster, but an expensive option for the AHL. If the competition is tight and choosing who makes it is hair splitting, it gives them the edge. Then hopefully they capitalize on their next contract.
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I believe this is pretty close to what Kylington did, isn’t it?
Took less than his QO and got a huge increase in his salary in the minors. Ended up spending the entire season up with the big club. His talent secured his spot but I’m sure the contract helped at the beginning of the season.
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12-20-2022, 10:50 PM
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#233
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: I don't belong here
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandman
Valimaki's TOI in the last 10:
Dec 19 vs MTL: 6:44
Dec 17 vs BUF: 10:38
Dec 16 vs NYI: 9:04
Dec 13 vs SJ: 9:15
Dec 11 vs PHI: 10:32
Dec 9 vs BOS: 8:37
Dec 7 vs EDM: 15:16
Dec 5 vs CGY: 12:19
Dec 3 vs VAN: 11:15
Nov 27 vs MIN: 20:00
Only 1a, and -3 in that span. Arizona has been playing 7 D.
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I wonder if Valimaki is still enjoying hockey?
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12-20-2022, 10:54 PM
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#234
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo
If he does go on waivers (he's still in the every day lineup so that's no imminent) would the Flames put in a claim for him?
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Great question. They’d be in the exact position they were when he was being sent down, other than they banked some cap savings for a chunk of the season.
I’m guessing player and team are done with each other.
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12-20-2022, 10:56 PM
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#235
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Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Crowsnest Pass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buff
I wonder if Valimaki is still enjoying hockey?
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A question I often ask myself.
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12-20-2022, 11:45 PM
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#236
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In the Sin Bin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curves2000
Perhaps Edmonton? I know it doesn't look good but what do they have to lose? 
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he is good at putting it right on Oilers sticks
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12-21-2022, 12:18 AM
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#237
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Calgary
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Perfect example of right or wrong place and circumstances and timing.
No injury, he didn’t miss the year until March of Covid and he’s probably still a top 6 guy or better with those reps and experience.
But the worst possible timing to miss that amount of hockey at a critical time of development and all those skills you developed to get drafted in top 20 diminishes, and other players in the organization also get a chance to prove their worth and improve their ability and standing and pass you on the depth chart, and or are given the benefit of the doubt compared to a guy that hadn’t played a league game in 16+ months.
But, it also means other thing happened as a result and other players got their chances.Does Tanev come here if Valimaki was a top pairing guy? Kylington more likely not to have been in the lineup. All sorts of other opportunities for players came because Valimaki was simply not around.
The St.Louis references are always grasping at straws. He wouldn’t have even been in the NHL if the Flames didn’t give him a chance in St John after no one else wanted him for their farm team, he was going nowhere. Then a call up to a poor Flames team to get some other eyes on him.
For every St Louis that barely hangs on in the minors, gets a shot, and a break and a team that has a spot for him and he just incredibly turns it around, there are a lot of the 200 or so just as talented hockey players each year picked in an entry draft, that, through timing, team situations, personal teenage situations and don’t get a sniff or proper look on a team in the league for years..not even years, a critical year or two of NHL developmental time missed, that once that tight window has passed and you don’t get your break, you’re just another player on the pile of decent players and you need some luck to get a break, nevermind having to keep your skills up.
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12-21-2022, 08:41 AM
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#238
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Franchise Player
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Valimaki’s injury was unfortunate but can’t claim he hasn’t had a shot. He’s been in the NHL all season.
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12-21-2022, 09:31 AM
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#239
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Calgary
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It’s understandable that his play and his time will fluctuate, this is his first full season in the NHL. Part of developing young players is managing their time.
He’ll be fine.
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12-21-2022, 11:35 AM
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#240
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Owner
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyman
It’s understandable that his play and his time will fluctuate, this is his first full season in the NHL. Part of developing young players is managing their time.
He’ll be fine.
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Sure but his most recent run (10-12 games) fits what was happening in Calgary, with the first ten games in Arizona now as a clear out lier.
Nothing decided yet, but data is forming that it was a bump.
(Hope he works it out though)
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