Teachers drop the Holocaust to avoid offending Muslims

[CrusaderPi]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Okay I've thought about it and after all that thinking I ended up with the following question: do you really believe it's possible that "subsequent western generations" will be duped by a few crappy pommie schoolteachers and some dimwitted religious nuts into forgetting about the holocaust?

Yes, the lessons of the past are readily and easily forgotten.

You remember, your grandkids might remember, but what about their grandkids? If they remember it will probably be thought of as a historical relic not applicable to their modern times. Forgetting something like the holocaust won't happen overnight because of something like this. Dropping the holocaust as a part of the curriculum is just one step towards the inevitable.

[blankall]

Considering that the muslim faith was written many centuries before the holocaust happened, I do not see how it could be against anyone's faith to accept the holocaust? More like it is against political extremists that are hijacking the faith for their own agenda. The fact that people are actually considerign pandering to that is pretty awful.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by HelloHockeyFans

Brutal. The Rape of Nanking is already something that few North Americans know about... now they're going to drop the Holocaust from the curriculum?

There are dozens of massacres that happenned at the end of WW2 that are not in western history books. Not too many people know about the Bleiburg massacre for example, and most of the British intelligence about it is still classified. (~190,000 men, women, and children killed by a western ally, and with some alleged active participation from the British).

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

There are dozens of massacres that happenned at the end of WW2 that are not in western history books. Not too many people know about the Bleiburg massacre for example, and most of the British intelligence about it is still classified. (~190,000 men, women, and children killed by a western ally, and with some alleged active participation from the British).

Not to get into a larger dispute and shanghai this trail, but I had always learned that the number was closer to 50,000 people (still a massacre).

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by blankall

Considering that the muslim faith was written many centuries before the holocaust happened, I do not see how it could be against anyone's faith to accept the holocaust? More like it is against political extremists that are hijacking the faith for their own agenda. The fact that people are actually considerign pandering to that is pretty awful.

It really only offends Muslims because, the rest of the world, when taken in context of the Holocuast, feels sympathy for Jews and thus the state of Isreal (I do understand that that this tide is turning presently, but historically this has some truth). Muslims are against the Isreali state because it was 'stolen' from them after WWII, largely directly due to the holocaust. This is where holocaust denial comes in. It's a whole lot easier for followers of Islam to continue to oppose Isreal if they believe that the Holocaust is some sort of Jewish conspiracy to take over the world as opposed to historical fact. As the grandchild of two grandparents who witnessed the Holocaust first hand, this is complete garbage and propaganda and it's absolutely repugnant that anyone would be motivated to deny this part of the world's history for any reason.

Back in the 1990s if white people in North America were seen as holocaust deniers they were tarred and feathered as racists, I don't see why muslim holocaust deniers aren't treated the same way in the 21st Century. Instead we're seeing in England that their backward beliefs are actually catered to. This is unacceptable.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Not to get into a larger dispute and shanghai this trail, but I had always learned that the number was closer to 50,000 people (still a massacre).

The number around Bleiberg itself was around 55,000, but many people lump the massacres that happened in the immediate area as part of the Blieberg event (such as a similar massacre in Maribor). A few years ago the Slovenians unearthed more than 296 mass graves and the estimated number shot up substantially.

http://arhiv.slobodnadalmacija.hr/19990912/novosti.htm

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

It really only offends Muslims because, the rest of the world, when taken in context of the Holocuast, feels sympathy for Jews and thus the state of Isreal (I do understand that that this tide is turning presently, but historically this has some truth). Muslims are against the Isreali state because it was 'stolen' from them after WWII, largely directly due to the holocaust. This is where holocaust denial comes in. It's a whole lot easier for followers of Islam to continue to oppose Isreal if they believe that the Holocaust is some sort of Jewish conspiracy to take over the world as opposed to historical fact. As the grandchild of two grandparents who witnessed the Holocaust first hand, this is complete garbage and propaganda and it's absolutely repugnant that anyone would be motivated to deny this part of the world's history for any reason.

Back in the 1990s if white people in North America were seen as holocaust deniers they were tarred and feathered as racists, I don't see why muslim holocaust deniers aren't treated the same way in the 21st Century. Instead we're seeing in England that their backward beliefs are actually catered to. This is unacceptable.

I understand why they do it....

sorry my point was more along the lines of Westerners should be open to religions, but holocaust denial has never been part of any religion. It is part of intolrent extremist political views that advocate violence. Something any civilized country should have no part in. Just because we are tolerant does not mean we have to accept the political will of outside forces. Espeicially ones w/ such obvious political agendas. The goal of holocaust denial clearly is not aimed at exposing any truth, but accomplishing a political goal....AKA propaghanda

I think we are on the same page on this one. Although as an advocate of freedom of speech, I dont think a total ban into genuine research on whether or not the holocaust did happen (although i cant imagine any research that wouldnt have some more hateful motivation), to deny people teaching the very basics of the holocaust in schools (unless of course it can be proven false, which i dont beleive it can) is absolutely outrageous.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

I have a few thoughts about this. Firstly, it's not "politically correct" to omit the holocaust from a syllabus because you're afraid to offend people who are learniong something different at home. It's just political cowardice. You can probably blame it on relativism if you like, but I think political correctness is something slightly different.

The comparison between this and the "creation science" debate in the U.S. is quite apt. In each case, parents of students are understood to have some kind of right to decide what their children learn in school--i.e. they believe that their own beliefs trump school curricula when it comes to controversial matters. If you want to teach your children that the holocaust didn't happen, or that the earth is only 4000 years old, or that the earth is flat, that's up to you--but to expect the school system to toe the line and kowtow to your beliefs leads to a school system that eventually teaches nothing at all.

It's true that history is a fiction--but that's because it is itself produced by historically specific contexts--"history" is a part of history, if you like. That doesn't mean that there's no such thing as an agreed-upon truth, that reaches the level of incontrovertibility. The holocaust is one such truth. So is evolution science. The deniers of these things should recognize themselves as the fringe, and stop trying to inflict their beliefs on an entire school board's curriculum.


Finally, one comment on this post:

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

If you get a chance some time find an old set of encyclopedias dated before 1950. You'll find a huge difference between it and a modern encyclopedia. Christianity's influence on historical events has been omitted or only mentioned when it is seen in a bad light in the last half century..

Firstly, I'll say that you probably don't want to look to an encyclopedia for historical knowledge. But more importantly, this isn't true at all. Christianity has had a great many influences on historical outcomes, both good and bad. I'll give just one example:

Christianity was instrumental in ending slavery in the United States. This is a widely accepted historical fact that you can find in any number of texts in print and online.

(Just pointing out that the world really isn't out to get you.)

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by blankall

I understand why they do it....

sorry my point was more along the lines of Westerners should be open to religions, but holocaust denial has never been part of any religion. It is part of intolrent extremist political views that advocate violence. Something any civilized country should have no part in. Just because we are tolerant does not mean we have to accept the political will of outside forces. Espeicially ones w/ such obvious political agendas. The goal of holocaust denial clearly is not aimed at exposing any truth, but accomplishing a political goal....AKA propaghanda

I think we are on the same page on this one. Although as an advocate of freedom of speech, I dont think a total ban into genuine research on whether or not the holocaust did happen (although i cant imagine any research that wouldnt have some more hateful motivation), to deny people teaching the very basics of the holocaust in schools (unless of course it can be proven false, which i dont beleive it can) is absolutely outrageous.

You'd be surprised how mainstream this kind of attitude is in Islam. I have known some 'moderate' Muslims who have said in front of me that they don't read the National Post because it is run by the Jewish Asper family and thus contains Jewish propaganda. These are Second Generation Canadian born and raised Muslims too. I think a big part of it is that we as a 'tolerant' society tend to 'tolerate' the bigotry of other cultures because calling them out would result in us being labled as the racists. This kind of stuff can be alarming.

[Ice]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

This type of stuff amazes me. My girlfriend is looking to quit teaching because of how teaches has evolved into a "love the student" and "offend no one".

I abandoned the profession for exactly this reason here in the U.S. Teaching has become more about political correctness and a fear of creating students' negative self esteem due to letter grades, red pens, marking incorrect answers, etc. than about actually educating youths. Its acceptable to graduate students who aren't able to fill out a job application or have the basic reading/writing skills to create a resume as long as you tell them they're OK.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

I think a big part of it is that we as a 'tolerant' society tend to 'tolerate' the bigotry of other cultures because calling them out would result in us being labled as the racists. This kind of stuff can be alarming.

Our tolerant society correctly labels all holocaust deniers (be they Christian, Muslim or Miscellaneous) as morons and/or lunatics and we are not called racists for doing so.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Came accross this article while browsing the Detroit forum.
However a promising outlook is offered up in the article.

Link
This is really unfortunate and disgusting, I am not sure of the scale of this movement by the teachers, but it reminds of the similar event that happened in the US with the creationism/evolution teaching at school.

This was brought up on The Factor and Glen Beck last week. Yah, pretty sad.

MYK