Russia invades Ukraine

[FlamesAddiction]

If Russia did do it on purpose... Russia still has 3,500 soldiers occupying Georgia. Maybe send Georgia a bunch of HIMARS for them to take it back.

[Mr.Coffee]

Somebody should ask Putin what he would do if a NATO missile struck a Russian target and killed Russian civilians?

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Somebody should ask Putin what he would do if a NATO missile struck a Russian target and killed Russian civilians?

He Already said on multiple occasions he would send nukes.


...... Thats what he 'said' anyways

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

He Already said on multiple occasions he would send nukes.


...... Thats what he 'said' anyways

At this point do we trust that they even work? If they exist.

[Barnet Flame]

Oh, they’ll work.

Not necessarily in the right places.

But they’ll work.

Maybe.

[Huntingwhale]

Reported now that it was an air defence missile from Ukraine;

U.S. President Joe Biden told G7 and NATO partners that a missile blast in eastern Poland was caused by a Ukrainian air defence missile, a NATO source told Reuters on Wednesday.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ce-2022-11-16/

Hilarious seeing the Russian trolls online complain how aid should stop because Zelensky "lied" and the escalation came from the Ukraine side.

Couple things on that.

First of all, yesterday the missile hitting Poland completely distracted from the fact that yesterday was apparently the largest amount of missiles launched at Ukrainian civilians since the war started. Russians crying about how Zelensky lied and aid should stop based on this, yet completely ignore the fact that a hundred missiles were targeted at civilians. Absolute tragedy what happened in Poland. But #### Russian for causing that in the first place. If Russian doesn't invade and launch a hundred missiles on this day, this doesn't happen. Was only a matter of time before something like this happened and only one side is to blame. One.

Second, Russia has lied and lied and lied every step of the way. They absolutely 100% do not deserve the benefit of a doubt. This event can happen a hundred times more, and each time Russia should be the primary suspect until proven otherwise. That's the price you pay for being a global liar on the world stage.

Third, I still believe that even though signs apparently point to Ukraine, aid should still be increased and larger more powerful weapons sent, as if Russia did it. Why? Because things like this will continue to happen in the future as long as Russia keeps volleying missiles like it's a free throw game and playing with fire shooting so close to a NATO border.

There is about a 5% conspiracy theorist in me that believes this actually was Russia, NATO and allies know about it, but are so incredibly desperate to avoid a direct conflict with Russia that they are sweeping this under the rug and taking the blame off of them. They will have back channeled to them that they know it's them and this is the absolute last straw before NATO steps in and does something about it. Again, conspiracy theorist in me saying that, but I can't shake the feeling that this could be the case in order to not confront Russia on the battlefield.

Russia will cry about this over the next few days, but don't let that distract from the fact that they are still targeting civilians on a massive scale, without mercy and they now have the perfect distraction to keep doing it.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

There is about a 5% conspiracy theorist in me that believes this actually was Russia, NATO and allies know about it, but are so incredibly desperate to avoid a direct conflict with Russia that they are sweeping this under the rug and taking the blame off of them. They will have back channeled to them that they know it's them and this is the absolute last straw before NATO steps in and does something about it. Again, conspiracy theorist in me saying that, but I can't shake the feeling that this could be the case in order to not confront Russia on the battlefield.

I had this exact thought. NATO knows about it, confronted Russia and negotiated a response that will happen under the cover of normal operations, without escalating in the eyes of the public and world at large. If that's the case, I think I'm fine with it.

[jeffman]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Reported now that it was an air defence missile from Ukraine;



https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ce-2022-11-16/

Hilarious seeing the Russian trolls online complain how aid should stop because Zelensky "lied" and the escalation came from the Ukraine side.

Couple things on that.

First of all, yesterday the missile hitting Poland completely distracted from the fact that yesterday was apparently the largest amount of missiles launched at Ukrainian civilians since the war started. Russians crying about how Zelensky lied and aid should stop based on this, yet completely ignore the fact that a hundred missiles were targeted at civilians. Absolute tragedy what happened in Poland. But #### Russian for causing that in the first place. If Russian doesn't invade and launch a hundred missiles on this day, this doesn't happen. Was only a matter of time before something like this happened and only one side is to blame. One.

Second, Russia has lied and lied and lied every step of the way. They absolutely 100% do not deserve the benefit of a doubt. This event can happen a hundred times more, and each time Russia should be the primary suspect until proven otherwise. That's the price you pay for being a global liar on the world stage.

Third, I still believe that even though signs apparently point to Ukraine, aid should still be increased and larger more powerful weapons sent, as if Russia did it. Why? Because things like this will continue to happen in the future as long as Russia keeps volleying missiles like it's a free throw game and playing with fire shooting so close to a NATO border.

There is about a 5% conspiracy theorist in me that believes this actually was Russia, NATO and allies know about it, but are so incredibly desperate to avoid a direct conflict with Russia that they are sweeping this under the rug and taking the blame off of them. They will have back channeled to them that they know it's them and this is the absolute last straw before NATO steps in and does something about it. Again, conspiracy theorist in me saying that, but I can't shake the feeling that this could be the case in order to not confront Russia on the battlefield.

Russia will cry about this over the next few days, but don't let that distract from the fact that they are still targeting civilians on a massive scale, without mercy and they now have the perfect distraction to keep doing it.

Called it

[opendoor]

If it was an S-300, it would have been nearly impossible for it to have been launched by Russia. The range for those is ~150km and only the tiniest sliver of Belarus is within that range of where it ended up.

Assuming it was indeed a short-range missile, the simplest explanation was always a Ukrainian air defense missile that malfunctioned.

[CroFlames]

There's a small part of me that wants NATO to open an absolute can of whoopass on Moscow. Belgrade in 1999, but like x1000. (Funny how the two have been allies for centuries, but I digress).

Their military is decimated. There's no one to fight back.

Based on what we've seen in Ukraine, I think the US/NATO could neutralize Russian nuclear strikes on the West. I think MAD exists between NATO and Chine/India/Pakistan etc. But not with Russia. It's just RAD. Russian Assured Destruction.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

There's a small part of me that wants NATO to open an absolute can of whoopass on Moscow. Belgrade in 1999, but like x1000. (Funny how the two have been allies for centuries, but I digress).

Their military is decimated. There's no one to fight back.

Based on what we've seen in Ukraine, I think the US/NATO could neutralize Russian nuclear strikes on the West. I think MAD exists between NATO and Chine/India/Pakistan etc. But not with Russia. It's just RAD. Russian Assured Destruction.

That's a hell of a gamble. There is no stopping an ICBM, and just one sub out there can launch a bunch of them. You miss one sub, and you lose the gamble.

[Bagor]

Pretty much closure on the incident.

Poland’s president Andrzej Duda has said the missile that landed in his country and killed two people appears to be an “unfortunate accident”.

It was highly probable that the rocket, which was Russian-made, was used by the Ukrainian air defence, he added.

There were no grounds to believe that the missile incident was an intentional attack, Duda said, or that the rocket was launched by the Russian side

https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...land-in-poland

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That's a hell of a gamble. There is no stopping an ICBM, and just one sub out there can launch a bunch of them. You miss one sub, and you lose the gamble.

Sean Connery will just defect. Problem solved.

[FlamesAddiction]

Missiles miss targets all the time. Statistically speaking, if you shoot enough of them, you are going to have an accident at some point. Usually it happens within the borders of the war, so it doesn't get investigated too hard. The fact of the matter is, Ukraine would not be firing missiles if not for Russia invading their country. Directly and indirectly, Russia is responsible for every single death in this war.

As for conspiracy theories, there is no need. If it was fired by Russian forces, all they would have to say is it was a malfunction and an accident. Article 5 isn't meant to bring about Armageddon over an accident. If NATO is saying it was Ukrainian, I think you can take that at face value.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Pretty much closure on the incident.



https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...land-in-poland

Though minutes ago Zelensky was adamant that it was not fired from Ukraine.


I'm still pretty firmly in the malfunctioned air defense missile camp, but part of me wonders if there's more to the story. Russia would love to put a rift between Ukraine and Poland, there's reports US officials tracked the flight of the missiles, and Biden is still being a bit cagey about it

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Reported now that it was an air defence missile from Ukraine;

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ce-2022-11-16/

First of all, yesterday the missile hitting Poland completely distracted from the fact that yesterday was apparently the largest amount of missiles launched at Ukrainian civilians since the war started. Russians crying about how Zelensky lied and aid should stop based on this, yet completely ignore the fact that a hundred missiles were targeted at civilians. Absolute tragedy what happened in Poland. But #### Russian for causing that in the first place. If Russian doesn't invade and launch a hundred missiles on this day, this doesn't happen. Was only a matter of time before something like this happened and only one side is to blame. One.

For their part, almost all European leaders have already put the blame of the incident solely on Russia regardless of which missile landed in Poland.

If Russia is to laugh at Ukraine's missile landing in Poland, the S-300 is russian made after all.

Note that in Russia's mass attack it is possible they may have killed more Russians then Ukrainians as one of the Iranian drones malfunctioned and bombed itself.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1592586289731469312?t=YUsWbIMrI4HUkPCbc3h_Dg&s=19

Ukraine also knocked out 75 of 93 missiles launched yesterday, in what was a 1 billion Putin tantrum after losing Kherson. US has also boasted NASAMS as having a 100% success rate. With russian made missiles landing in Poland it may be a good idea to provide Ukraine with even more reliable anti air missiles

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...rce=reddit.com

On the conspiracy theory front, Zelensky has just reiterated he believes Ukrainian intelligence and is adamant that it is not one of their missiles and is asking for access to the investigation.

If it truly was a Russian attack, NATO isn't going to acknowledge it at this point.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Firebot

For their part, almost all European leaders have already put the blame of the incident solely on Russia regardless of which missile landed in Poland.

If Russia is to laugh at Ukraine's missile landing in Poland, the S-300 is russian made after all.

Note that in Russia's mass attack it is possible they may have killed more Russians then Ukrainians as one of the Iranian drones malfunctioned and bombed itself.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1592586289731469312?t=YUsWbIMrI4HUkPCbc3h_Dg&s=19

Ukraine also knocked out 75 of 93 missiles launched yesterday, in what was a 1 billion Putin tantrum after losing Kherson. US has also boasted NASAMS as having a 100% success rate. With russian made missiles landing in Poland it may be a good idea to provide Ukraine with even more reliable anti air missiles

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...rce=reddit.com

On the conspiracy theory front, Zelensky has just reiterated he believes Ukrainian intelligence and is adamant that it is not one of their missiles and is asking for access to the investigation.

If it truly was a Russian attack, NATO isn't going to acknowledge it at this point.

CNN is reporting Zelensky isn't denying reports the missile originated in Ukraine:

In a statement to CNN on Wednesday, an adviser to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky did not explicitly deny reports the missile originated in Ukraine but emphasized Russia’s responsibility for starting the war.

“There is only one logic to be followed,” Mykhailo Podolyak, an adviser to the head of the Office of the Ukrainian President, said. “The war was started and is being waged by Russia. Russia is massively attacking Ukraine with cruise missiles. Russia has turned the eastern part of the European continent into an unpredictable battlefield. Intent, means of execution, risks, escalation – it is all coming from Russia alone.”

[jeffman]

Originally Posted by Firebot

For their part, almost all European leaders have already put the blame of the incident solely on Russia regardless of which missile landed in Poland.

If Russia is to laugh at Ukraine's missile landing in Poland, the S-300 is russian made after all.

Note that in Russia's mass attack it is possible they may have killed more Russians then Ukrainians as one of the Iranian drones malfunctioned and bombed itself.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1592586289731469312?t=YUsWbIMrI4HUkPCbc3h_Dg&s=19

Ukraine also knocked out 75 of 93 missiles launched yesterday, in what was a 1 billion Putin tantrum after losing Kherson. US has also boasted NASAMS as having a 100% success rate. With russian made missiles landing in Poland it may be a good idea to provide Ukraine with even more reliable anti air missiles

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...rce=reddit.com

On the conspiracy theory front, Zelensky has just reiterated he believes Ukrainian intelligence and is adamant that it is not one of their missiles and is asking for access to the investigation.

If it truly was a Russian attack, NATO isn't going to acknowledge it at this point.

Perhaps it was an unauthorized launch by a rogue Ukrainian general and that’s why Zelenskyy doesn’t know

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

There's a small part of me that wants NATO to open an absolute can of whoopass on Moscow. Belgrade in 1999, but like x1000. (Funny how the two have been allies for centuries, but I digress).

Their military is decimated. There's no one to fight back.

Based on what we've seen in Ukraine, I think the US/NATO could neutralize Russian nuclear strikes on the West. I think MAD exists between NATO and Chine/India/Pakistan etc. But not with Russia. It's just RAD. Russian Assured Destruction.

Even with a decimated military, Russia still has about 6000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, 1100 ICBMs and 800 on submarines, these strategic city busting weapons, They still have a few thousand smaller tactical weapons that can be launched via aircraft cruise missile, out of battlefield artillary kits and dropped as gravity bombs.

With the Russian Strategic weapons, they have a different philosopy then the Americans with most of their ICBM force being mounted on mobile platforms such as trucks and rail cars. As well as again 800 on submarines.

For any counterforce strategy to be successful, you'd have to be absolutely precise on the location of each weapon, and hope and pray that your strike wouldn't be detected, because even with a few minutes notice, its likely that the Russians would be able to launch a great many weapons. The overall strategy when it comes to Nuclear weapons is to launch them and not allow them to be destroyed on or in the ground.

So any strike would invite an overwhelming response.

As far as I know the Western Powers still don't have a truly effective defense against a nuclear strike. So lets say that America did launch a first strike on the Russian nuclear arsenal and out of the 2000 strategic system only half got off of the ground, and lets say that the Americans had a top secret ballistic missile defense that managed to knock down half of the warheads, the West would still be hit by 500 warheads, more then enough to end the war.

The best defense against Nuclear weapons is to ensure they're not used and kept in the ground. Which means you don't risk triggering a strike or retaliatory strike.

And going primevil on Moscow would probably end the world as we know it.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by Sliver

CNN is reporting Zelensky isn't denying reports the missile originated in Ukraine:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1592928556635471873

Not sure what your angle is here with your post, but Zelensky's recent statement was televised and corroborated, and Podolyak isn't Zelensky.

Also your article and Podolyak's comments doesn't refute Zelensky's statement or contradict it.