Flames only nhl team NOT to graduate a single draft pick since 2018

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I don't think the Flames have drafted poorly at all, although their lack of picks has been to their detriment.

I don't think they're developing guys poorly, otherwise I don't think they wouldn't have had all the playoff success in the A they had last year. (I touched on both these points in the piece).

I think the issue is the attributes they prioritize when it comes to promoting guys. I'm with Bingo, I don't think guys like Ritchie, Lewis, Lucic have really been problems at all this year when they've been deployed in situations befitting their roles. What I can't wrap my head around is why Lucic is the guy they're going to for second-line minutes, or Ritchie is the guy getting PP2 minutes, when they have highly skilled prospects who have developed well and are pining for roles.

Like ... the sentiment all along is that some of these guys need to play top-six roles, or bust. Well, right now, the top-six guys are the ones who are struggling. But asking Milan Lucic to play on a scoring line when he hasn't scored a goal with his stick in 68 games isn't the answer.

this is where I'm coming from on the issue also . the drafting and developing has been good for what pick positions they've had to work with .. it's who they are choosing to fill roles when they need skill help in the top 9 that is highly questionable . a lot of square peg + round hole decisions by Sutter early on

I was also under the impression that the top 9 hole was meant for top six "type" players , not the likes of Lewis .. which was the whole point of those tryouts in camp . even if no one really stuck out going to a grinder/energy player after all that is a worse solution than putting the right type of player there and giving them the chance to grow into it

it's such a lazy stop gap move that seems like an FU to the under performers in camp . what the team really needs is to get long term solution players into those roles asap so that they can help our window over the next 3 years . the lack of long term outlook is a little infuriating from a fan perspective . Lewis isn't helping us win a cup in a top 9 role ... whereas letting Pelletier get through his growing pains now in october could pay dividends come April if he finds his footing

then it saves you picks you would otherwise be spending on two months of players like Jarnkrok !! ... this is exactly why its importanr to promote at least one young player per season

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

On this we agree.
And at times I would like the Flames to give more of the young players a chance. But I would have liked to have seen a young guy grab that opportunity in the pre-season. Now you can counter that they weren't given a chance. And maybe there's truth in that.

But then I look around the NHL and see other higher touted prospects also down in the AHL. The guys that stick seem to stick because they grabbed that spot.

But the packaging around the Flames not graduating a single draft pick I think is actually not the point you are trying to make. Because indeed the larger factor in that is probably lack of picks.

At minimum interesting to think about and talk about which is the point of any good article.

I do think it's worth looking very much at specific cases.

Pittsburgh is beginning to ease in one of Pelletier's QMJHL counterparts in Samuel Poulin, who is the same age and was significantly less productive in the A last season. There are only five guys from the 2019 first round who haven't gotten games yet, and Pelletier profiles by far the best of those five (and there are numerous guys who have played who profile worse).

Zary, I can understand why you might give him some more time. He's doing so many good things in the A right now but there's also the fact he missed last year's camp. This really is kinda like his first full pro year. But ... he's also very much been around that group for a while. I do think he'd potentially be capable of filling a similar type of void as an Alex Newhook in a pretty short timeframe. And again ... more than two-thirds of the 2020 first round has already seen the NHL.

Don't think Phillips is ever going to get a look, and he was picked seven drafts ago. Pospisil is intriguing and I think a legit NHL prospect but he hasn't been producing yet this year. Wolf is on a completely different timeline and not really relevant to the overall topic.

There's definitely a lack of names. But the top guys have developed really well.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Oh yeah, Boston is a great team, but like a true contender they barely make any picks. Furthermore, the picks they have made are typically pretty underwhelming.

I guess we're true contenders!!

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Would you if you were him? Not a chance I would.

The Flames truly don’t give their prospects any rope to work with. People saying they “didn’t outperform in training camp” every single year are not being very honest here. Like first of all yes, Phillips did if you watched him. Like if you took names and numbers off jerseys and had no idea who these guys were coming into camp Phillips would be on the team. He is in the AHL due to contracts and roster size limits and the business stuff, not on the hockey stuff. Then some slam the guy for being too small and pretend like we didn’t just have a very small superstar for the last decade here.

Honestly ask yourself if you were Coronato would you sign with Calgary? It’s a gigantic risk to his career to do so and if I’m watching how Calgary handles rookies and prospects and seeing guys like Valimaki, not a chance. People say these guys have to “earn it” but they truly are not given a chance. Not really.

This ignores that the Flames have had prospects step right in, including after college, and other guys graduate from the AHL.

I am happy to see Juuso doing OK in Phoenix but he was someone who was thought to be bad in the NHL and AHL last season.

If I'm Coronato and I'm looking at the Flames and excited to sign because there is a clear gap with the position I play.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

nvm

[Erick Estrada]

The team is definitely going to feel the pain of the lack young talent down the road but I don't think this is the season to fret over that. Right now they have to focus on winning with the roster they have built largely through trades and free agency. Lots of new parts already that haven't gelled so throwing in a few rookies may not be for the best. Next season if players like Pelletier aren't getting a chance to make the team then you can start griping and really that's going to be an issue for as long as Darryl Sutter is the head coach as a rookie can't be just as good as a vet to make the team. He will have to be considerably better. It's just the way it is.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The team is definitely going to feel the pain of the lack young talent down the road but I don't think this is the season to fret over that. Right now they have to focus on winning with the roster they have built largely through trades and free agency. Lots of new parts already that haven't gelled so throwing in a few rookies may not be for the best. Next season if players like Pelletier aren't getting a chance to make the team then you can start griping and really that's going to be an issue for as long as Darryl Sutter is the head coach as a rookie can't be just as good as a vet to make the team. He will have to be considerably better. It's just the way it is.

its always "next year" . last year it was this year, particularly in the case of jacob pelletier

[Canada 02]

FYI , Coronato just scored his 5th point of the season, 2 games and 1 period into his sophomore year

He is a dominant offensive force, who also happens to be a great 2 way forward, kills penalties and is great at faceoffs

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Canada 02

FYI , Coronato just scored his 5th point of the season, 2 games and 1 period into his sophomore year

Yup. This is why it's a bit disingenuous to say things like ‘The Flames haven't graduated any prospects.’ They can't just tell Coronato, ‘You're graduated. Report to the NHL.’ He has a say in the matter, too, and he chose to stay in Harvard this year.

Also, I wish people would remember that the opening-day lineup is never carved in stone. I still remember the fall of '88, when this tiny kid showed up in training camp, scoring goals and knocking huge guys flat on their arses. I was terribly disappointed when the Flames sent him down at the end of camp. But he spent three months tearing up the AHL, they recalled him in mid-season, and he never looked back. His name? Theoren Fleury.

Zary is dominating at the AHL level so far this year, and it's great to see. It will do no harm at all to leave him there for half a season, if that's how things turn out. The organization wants him to play centre, not wing, and I understand why. He was one of the top 12 forwards in camp, but not one of the top 4 centres, and you don't want a talent like that in the pressbox at his age.

Possibly, if Zary continues to excel and Lindholm continues to disappoint, we'll end up seeing Lindholm moved back to RW and Zary promoted at C. That could be a very good outcome. But I think it's a bit premature to try it just yet.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Yup. This is why it's a bit disingenuous to say things like ‘The Flames haven't graduated any prospects.’ They can't just tell Coronato, ‘You're graduated. Report to the NHL.’ He has a say in the matter, too, and he chose to stay in Harvard this year.

Also, I wish people would remember that the opening-day lineup is never carved in stone. I still remember the fall of '88, when this tiny kid showed up in training camp, scoring goals and knocking huge guys flat on their arses. I was terribly disappointed when the Flames sent him down at the end of camp. But he spent three months tearing up the AHL, they recalled him in mid-season, and he never looked back. His name? Theoren Fleury.

Zary is dominating at the AHL level so far this year, and it's great to see. It will do no harm at all to leave him there for half a season, if that's how things turn out. The organization wants him to play centre, not wing, and I understand why. He was one of the top 12 forwards in camp, but not one of the top 4 centres, and you don't want a talent like that in the pressbox at his age.

Possibly, if Zary continues to excel and Lindholm continues to disappoint, we'll end up seeing Lindholm moved back to RW and Zary promoted at C. That could be a very good outcome. But I think it's a bit premature to try it just yet.

good luck if you think it will be just half a season before a permanent zary recall

[LowellK21]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

...

Zary is dominating at the AHL level so far this year, and it's great to see.

...

Serious question from someone who has never followed the AHL... Is 7 points in 8 games and a -11 (yes I know +/- isn't a great stat) considered "dominating at the AHL level"?

[Mass_nerder]

Originally Posted by Canada 02

FYI , Coronato just scored his 5th point of the season, 2 games and 1 period into his sophomore year

He is a dominant offensive force, who also happens to be a great 2 way forward, kills penalties and is great at faceoffs

I thought he was a RW? How many faceoffs is he taking?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I don't think the Flames have drafted poorly at all, although their lack of picks has been to their detriment.

I don't think they're developing guys poorly, otherwise I don't think they wouldn't have had all the playoff success in the A they had last year. (I touched on both these points in the piece).

I think the issue is the attributes they prioritize when it comes to promoting guys. I'm with Bingo, I don't think guys like Ritchie, Lewis, Lucic have really been problems at all this year when they've been deployed in situations befitting their roles. What I can't wrap my head around is why Lucic is the guy they're going to for second-line minutes, or Ritchie is the guy getting PP2 minutes, when they have highly skilled prospects who have developed well and are pining for roles.

Like ... the sentiment all along is that some of these guys need to play top-six roles, or bust. Well, right now, the top-six guys are the ones who are struggling. But asking Milan Lucic to play on a scoring line when he hasn't scored a goal with his stick in 68 games isn't the answer.

Thank you for saying this. Love the guy, but let's keep what he brings in perspective.

If Lucic is playing a lot of minutes, that simply puts more pressure on others for production. Because it's not coming from him.

[Canada 02]

Originally Posted by Mass_nerder

I thought he was a RW? How many faceoffs is he taking?

he has played ~40 college games, and ~ 10-12 at center. He has only played center this season and is Harvard's #1 C

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

its always "next year" . last year it was this year, particularly in the case of jacob pelletier

Sure but Pelletier did absolutely squat in pre season to be even given a sniff of nhl to start the year. I was very disappointed in all the forward prospects this training camp. There was a spot up for grabs and nobody stepped up. I thought ruzika had a bad camp also and should thank his lucky stars that he is the 13th forward. I thought Phillips deserved a longer look but that’s about it.

That said I fully agree that lucic should not be anything more than a 4th liner.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Trevor Lewis is 3rd on the team in xGF% 5 on 5 and tied for 2nd in five on five goals.

He's the guy people have issue with?

Yikes

The Flames are and have been missing a top nine winger, they're trying different options and may resort to a call up, but clearly aren't there yet.

It's not that the 4th liners are playing poorly - they aren't, they've all been good - it's that they are getting too much ice time. Two problems with that:

1) the 4th liners getting a lot of ice time, will lead to a team that plays a low creativity, grinding game.

2) the top 6 guys aren't getting enough ice time to get rolling.

IMO, pointing out that Ritchie and Lewis have been good, and are among the leaders in points, is completely missing the issue, which is that they shouldn't be getting enough ice time for that to happen.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Or that you can only have 23 men on the roster, and you can't exceed the cap. The Flames have room to add just one player to the roster, and he has to be making no more than $1,578,000. If they want to add any more, they have to put players on waivers and send them down – and they will have lost the ability to bank cap for later in the year. That's pretty drastic surgery for a three-game losing streak.

Sutter was quite frank that the Flames sent Zary down for contractual reasons. Every team does this. It's not because the Calgary Flames' management is uniquely stupid.

Every team goes through situations like this, and they usually handle them in the same way. But because this is the team that's in town and you follow them closely, you can see their warts and criticize them. Don't imagine that nobody else in the NHL has the same warts.




Apart from the cap issues I mentioned above, Lucic is one of the few players who have actually been playing the system Sutter wants them to play – which is the same system that produced last year's 111-point regular season. The players who really deserve to be out of the lineup are the alleged stars of the team, and there just aren't enough bodies on the roster to scratch them. The most you can do is reduce their ice time and reward the players who are trying to do the right things.

Which, for those who are wondering, is exactly why you get the fourth line taking offensive-zone faceoffs while trailing by a goal late in the game. Their skill is limited, but they're at least using what they have in the right way. The top lines can have those opportunities when they show they will use them to help the team and not hurt it.

In a league with a salary cap, a maximum of three healthy scratches, and guaranteed contracts, this is about the only way to send a message that the stars can't ignore.

I think we can assume that if a player is acquired, another player is out. So that would mean $1.578M, plus at least $750K from whoever is outgoing.

So at least $2.3M today, and that number will grow throughout the year.

[Enoch Root]

In fairness, one reason that there has been no graduation is that there has basically been no injuries among the forwards in a couple of years.

Also, starting in 2018 is arbitrary, and happens to coincide with the fact that they didn't have a pick until the 4th round that year.

Pelletier, Zary and Coronato are all going to play for the Flames either this year, or next year at the latest.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by LowellK21

Serious question from someone who has never followed the AHL... Is 7 points in 8 games and a -11 (yes I know +/- isn't a great stat) considered "dominating at the AHL level"?

I think you know the answer. I haven’t watched much but I’m guessing “dominating” is being used to try and prove a point. Sounds like he is playing well.

[traptor]

Calgary has been terrible with 1st rounders, especially ones that don't come straight into the league. Last non-bust flame 1st rounder that went through the AHL was backlund for 52 games.