Ian Cole suspended pending investigation into sexual assault and grooming allegations

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Lol, your gold medal from law school! This gets better.

Oh but your a gold medal lawyer right? Lmao. Ok. I hope to God nobody has you as a lawyer!

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Oh let him come after me, he can show off his shiny gold medal! A real lawyer that believes people are guilty simply off an internet accusation. Now that is gold medal worthy!

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Oh and here is the defamation by legal standards. You know what our lawyer friend is saying doesn't apply.

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Well...that was an epic fail of a post. Except your whole "I finished first in my class" speech. Is that how you won the gold? Lol. By law definition you could absolutely make a defamation case here. Or is the actual wording of the law wrong and you are right because you know...first in class and all.

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Are you telling us you finished first in your class but you couldn't make a clear obvious case here? How?

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Perhaps Mr Lawyer you can tell us how you know that Mr. Cole is guilty of these accusations?

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Dammit, now I want a gold medal. If he is a lawyer I just learned a new thing, you can win gold in law.

Dude, you're coming off a little deranged towards GioPMfan the last couple of pages. Maybe ease off the gas a little.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Dude, you're coming off a little deranged towards GioPMfan the last couple of pages. Maybe ease off the gas a little.

Dissentowner and Jay Random get really weirdly obsessive about the lawyer thing with GioforPM. I see them mention him being a lawyer 10x more often than I see him mentioning it. Boys gotta relax.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Dude, you're coming off a little deranged towards GioPMfan the last couple of pages. Maybe ease off the gas a little.

We have a history. I am really trying to let this whole thing die at this point. On to other things.

[OptimalTates]

Weinstein, R. Kelly, Spacey, Maxwell, Epstein, Cosby, Trump, Clinton, Kavanaugh, etc. etc. all had or have anonymous accusers, often finding the courage to come forward years after the alleged rapes. Often times sparked by something else, like the MeToo movement or Supreme Court nomination. Some of them would find the courage to come forward publicly and/or cooperate with investigations, sometimes decades after the events. Others didn't (or haven't yet) and we can't fault them for that.

This entire summer was about shedding light on the rape culture perversing hockey. If she was groomed, the discussions being had right now, the inquiries, the backlash against Hockey Canada, Kyle Beach's courage, are very likely catalysts that prompted her to speak out. But just because she hasn't found her voice to come out publicly doesn't mean she is in the wrong, she doesn't owe it to anyone to do anything. Rape victims don't need to do this or do that. Her being proud of herself for finding the encouragement to speak out, even anonymously, should be seen as a great step for her. Her wanting to speak out anonymously to encourage others to come forward is a perfectly valid "end goal" even if she never goes to the police. She should still be proud of herself for her accomplishment and not be told she owes it to do more.

(Also we don't know what if anything she did in regards to reporting it to the police. I'm inferring she hadn't because she talks about how it took years to come forward with her single anonymous Twitter post, but lots of police departments have policies that if there are no charges the case is closed and nothing is released. Like the 2003 or 2018 teams. So maybe she did.)

[OptimalTates]

I mean there's sexual assault victims who might spend years gaining the courage to finally speak to a therapist or just write what happened in a journal. They should be able to see that as a huge accomplishment and not be shamed into believing they "owe" it to do more. Obviously amazing if they can find that courage to do more, whatever "more" may be, but we shouldn't castigate them for not doing so. For some victims, it's enough that they are able to get out of the bed in the morning.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Fair enough. We agree to disagree about certain things. I think we both want to see him shut down and pay the price if he is guilty right? I think this has dragged on long enough. Things get heated in tough discussions and personal. I get where you are coming from. Let's just let it go.

Triple post and a response I said I wouldn't make ha.

But I just want to clarify something that I think you may be missing because of the media we are using. I believe it's entirely possible that a random Twitter troll could accuse a random person for nothing more than ####s n giggles because they have a sad life. Certainly an increase in possibility if it's not a random person and someone who has a vendetta against. Cole could be falsely accused through no fault of his own. Something I said in my first post in this thread.

Getting that out of the way, my responses haven't been about if he did or did not do it. It has been in response to your questions or statements questioning why should we do what she did if it did happen.

Originally Posted by dissentowner

If she didn't file a report and just went straight to social media then I don't understand why she would do that. If what she says happened she totally should have filed a police report. Why wouldn't she?

So if she was raped, why wouldn't she go to the police? Please read any or all of these:

https://www.nctsn.org/sites/default/...disclosure.pdf

https://www.ywcaneks.org/blog/2020/1...ll-the-police/

https://www.dlawgroup.com/reasons-pe...-sexual-abuse/

https://jacksonhealth.org/blog/2018-...exual-assault/

Originally Posted by dissentowner

What I am saying is you can't just make an accusation that she made on social media and then bail out when what she said comes under scrutiny. If it happened then she owes it to herself and possible other victims to cooperate.

If she was raped, she can absolutely ####ing go on Twitter and put her rapist on blast. She doesn't need to cooperate with an investigation, especially with a private business, to have the moral standing to do so. If she was raped she doesn't owe it to anyone to do anything.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

This entire summer was about shedding light on the rape culture perversing hockey. If she was groomed, the discussions being had right now, the inquiries, the backlash against Hockey Canada, Kyle Beach's courage, are very likely catalysts that prompted her to speak out. But just because she hasn't found her voice to come out publicly doesn't mean she is in the wrong, she doesn't owe it to anyone to do anything. Rape victims don't need to do this or do that. Her being proud of herself for finding the encouragement to speak out, even anonymously, should be seen as a great step for her. Her wanting to speak out anonymously to encourage others to come forward is a perfectly valid "end goal" even if she never goes to the police. She should still be proud of herself for her accomplishment and not be told she owes it to do more.

I think this nails it and highlights something very wrong with the way a lot of people (disproportionately men) view claims of sexual abuse. Sometimes just speaking something into existence publicly is enough. It’s enough that it isn’t a secret the victim has to carry. Sometimes people don’t need justice, they just need to find a way to move on. Whatever they need, they don’t owe anyone anything. They don’t owe other victims that may be out there, they don’t owe the abuser’s employers, they don’t owe law enforcement, and it’s just generally ####ty to pretend like they do or attempt to turn them into a bad person because they didn’t live up to your expectations of how a “good” victim should act.

That’s also what “believe women” and those sorts of buzzwords are all about. It’s not about chasing down allegations to ensure everyone is punished, it’s simply about believing people when they come forward and supporting them.

The number of false allegations are nothing compared to the number of sexual assaults that go unreported or don’t result in a conviction or punishment for the abuser. But some people spend all their time chasing around allegations acting like EVERY one could be another false allegation.

We should all agree that at this point the Ian Cole situation we don’t know if he’s guilty or not, but it doesn’t cost us anything to believe the victim and unless people are super eager to take justice into their own hands and go beyond what the victim wants, it doesn’t cost him anything but reputation. And none of us owe him reputation.

[cam_wmh]

Here's a wiki (yeah i know) page on it. Case sample, seems to be limited to a single University study, but 6% are identified as false accusations.

Where as 10% of actual rapes, ever result in convictions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

Thus blindly siding with the 6% of falsely accused victims, vs 90% of raped women, is truly an illogical stance, and where the labelling of misogyny, in my opinion, derives from.

[Ryan Coke]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Thus blindly siding with the 6% of falsely accused victims, vs 90% of raped women, is truly an illogical stance, and where the labelling of misogyny, in my opinion, derives from.

I’d say that perspective is the fundamental failing. It isn’t about being on either side. That is like cheering for guilt or innocence during a trial, as opposed to wanting justice, wherever that lands.

It isn’t about supporting women or men, rapists or false accusers. It’s about being strongly in favour of due process, and not calling people names for it. Otherwise the entire justice system can be accused of simplistic, emotional claims of misogyny.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

I’d say that perspective is the fundamental failing. It isn’t about being on either side. That is like cheering for guilt or innocence during a trial, as opposed to wanting justice, wherever that lands.

It isn’t about supporting women or men, rapists or false accusers. It’s about being strongly in favour of due process, and not calling people names for it. Otherwise the entire justice system can be accused of simplistic, emotional claims of misogyny.

The age of social media and requiring instant results drives a lot of that. Most situations are not always black and white.

Guess that’s why there’s a legal system.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

I’d say that perspective is the fundamental failing. It isn’t about being on either side. That is like cheering for guilt or innocence during a trial, as opposed to wanting justice, wherever that lands.

It isn’t about supporting women or men, rapists or false accusers. It’s about being strongly in favour of due process, and not calling people names for it. Otherwise the entire justice system can be accused of simplistic, emotional claims of misogyny.

I doubt very much that perspective is THE fundamental failing when you’re responding to a post saying only 10% of actual rapes result in convictions with the position that people should put blind faith in the justice system.

If picking a side is a failure of some kind, being severely under-critical of the justice system is as well, and is no less guilty of being overly simplistic. I think we can all agree that the public “siding” with the victim or the accused in a way that has no influence on the legal repercussions is much less severe a problem than rapists going free, no? Do you see how suggesting the opposite is… maybe… a reason for unfavourable characterizations? I’m just going to assume you don’t actually believe that and you were having a simplistic, emotional response.

I think some people think emotion and intellect are mutually exclusive. Just because you lack any emotional response to something, doesn’t mean you’re having an intellectual response to it.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

I’d say that perspective is the fundamental failing. It isn’t about being on either side. That is like cheering for guilt or innocence during a trial, as opposed to wanting justice, wherever that lands.

It isn’t about supporting women or men, rapists or false accusers. It’s about being strongly in favour of due process, and not calling people names for it. Otherwise the entire justice system can be accused of simplistic, emotional claims of misogyny.

That's quite a basic, uncomplicated perspective. I'm not disregarding due process.

It becomes complicated due to the likelihood of it being true (very high [6% false accusations]), vs the likelihood of the complaint being formalized, going to court, and a guilty verdict found (very low [10%]).

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Here's a wiki (yeah i know) page on it. Case sample, seems to be limited to a single University study, but 6% are identified as false accusations.

Where as 10% of actual rapes, ever result in convictions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

Thus blindly siding with the 6% of falsely accused victims, vs 90% of raped women, is truly an illogical stance, and where the labelling of misogyny, in my opinion, derives from.

The labelling is wrong. Your opinion is simply to try and label someone from looking at both sides and questioning someone being guilty with a lack of evidence. Anyone who has that type of view is really broken. Thankfully society doesn't work that way. People are presumed innocent until proven otherwise. What you are doing is akin to if you dressed up as an Egyptian Pharoah for Halloween and I insisted you were a racist. That is how stupid your take on this is.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

The labelling is wrong. Your opinion is simply to try and label someone from looking at both sides and questioning someone being guilty with a lack of evidence. Anyone who has that type of view is really broken. Thankfully society doesn't work that way. People are presumed innocent until proven otherwise. What you are doing is akin to if you dressed up as an Egyptian Pharoah for Halloween and I insisted you were a racist. That is how stupid your take on this is.

I understand you feeling exposed, and wanting to disregard the label upon your comment.

Unfortunately, you fail to actually critically read the data, mate. Your hyperbolic example, is not relevant. I mean you can go unhinged once more, on me like you have others -- but a tantrum does not establish a fair take. Your emotional response, is creating a divide for you, from logic.

I'll quote my original reply, for you again.

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Just dripping in misogyny. Did you actually listen to those women during the Me Too campaign?

Are you familiar with how many sexual assaults result in a formal complaint? 30%
Are you familiar with how many sexual assaults from a formal complaint go to trial? 75%
Are you familiar with how many sexual assaults, that arose from a complaint, and that go to trial, result in convictions? 40%

And finally how many sexual assaults, result in a conviction? 10%

You're perpetuating it.

You blindly sided, as you haven't heard the formal complaint, nor are you or is anyone deserving to hear. Most rape victims, fear coming forward. Read that again. Most rape victims fear coming forward.

But instead, you trounce out that he is exonerated. He isn't guilty, nor is he guilty, we don't know. All we have is data, and an anonymous complaint, that history and data have shown, that we must listen to.


This will be final reply to you on the matter.

[jammies]

Is it defamation if I say dissentowner is the least interesting, most annoying poster on CP? I'm not saying that he is, I'm just asking if the truth would be a valid defence if I did.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

I understand you feeling exposed, and wanting to disregard the label upon your comment.

Unfortunately, you fail to actually critically read the data, mate. Your hyperbolic example, is not relevant. I mean you can go unhinged once more, on me like you have others -- but a tantrum does not establish a fair take. Your emotional response, is creating a divide for you, from logic.

I'll quote my original reply, for you again.

You blindly sided, as you haven't heard the formal complaint, nor are you or is anyone deserving to hear. Most rape victims, fear coming forward. Read that again. Most rape victims fear coming forward.

But instead, you trounce out that he is exonerated. He isn't guilty, nor is he guilty, we don't know. All we have is data, and an anonymous complaint, that history and data have shown, that we must listen to.


This will be final reply to you on the matter.

I think people are having a hard time understanding how hard is for someone to relieve that trauma over and over again its mentally exhausting. Sometimes people just want to forget something like that happened. Not to mention how women get treated by society with all the shaming and stuff that goes on. They also have a fear of not being believed and the last two pages show that.

I guess we are out with our pitchforks to get Ian freaking Cole because we hate him so much and want to see him in jail for some reason.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

I understand you feeling exposed, and wanting to disregard the label upon your comment.

Unfortunately, you fail to actually critically read the data, mate. Your hyperbolic example, is not relevant. I mean you can go unhinged once more, on me like you have others -- but a tantrum does not establish a fair take. Your emotional response, is creating a divide for you, from logic.

I'll quote my original reply, for you again.

You blindly sided, as you haven't heard the formal complaint, nor are you or is anyone deserving to hear. Most rape victims, fear coming forward. Read that again. Most rape victims fear coming forward.

But instead, you trounce out that he is exonerated. He isn't guilty, nor is he guilty, we don't know. All we have is data, and an anonymous complaint, that history and data have shown, that we must listen to.


This will be final reply to you on the matter.

I was the one making the argument we didn't know if he is guilty or not. You were the one saying that made me misogynistic. Good try though.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by jammies

Is it defamation if I say dissentowner is the least interesting, most annoying poster on CP? I'm not saying that he is, I'm just asking if the truth would be a valid defence if I did.

Then put me on ignore. Really simple. Bye bye.

[manwiches]

Lmao. The self righteous keyboard warriors. Y'all need to get laid

Sent from my SM-N975W using Tapatalk

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Here's a wiki (yeah i know) page on it. Case sample, seems to be limited to a single University study, but 6% are identified as false accusations.

Where as 10% of actual rapes, ever result in convictions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

Thus blindly siding with the 6% of falsely accused victims, vs 90% of raped women, is truly an illogical stance, and where the labelling of misogyny, in my opinion, derives from.

What about the statistics on anonymous throwaway Twitter accounts falsely accusing victims of rape?

Like sure, it’s one thing if a victim comes out and files a lawsuit or publicly goes on the record to accuse someone of rape. They are putting themselves and their reputations on the line doing that, so I would expect the rate of false accusations to be low in situation. Conversely, I also understand why a lot of those victims wouldn’t want to come forward and subject themselves to that sort of pain and suffering and would rather just move on with their lives.

But that’s not what happened in this situation. And I’m not saying that the accusation was right or wrong. But you absolutely cannot equate a random anonymous throwaway Twitter post and someone bravely coming out and putting their life and reputation on the line to hold a rapist accountable. And you absolutely cannot use statistics from latter to prove your point about the former.