Training Camp Day 11 Notes - Flames assign 9 players to AHL. 6 players on waivers.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Has Dube? He has been playing with plenty of lacklustre line mates, and looked fantastic in every game. And here he is, lining up next to Kadri.

Exactly right. If you can't fill the hole right now with a PTO or prospect do it internally with Dube who has been looking good and then you have a much easier hole to fill in the bottom six.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

There is another game today, no?

Is there nothing new from camp yet? Usually they have skated/practiced by now.

Morning skate scheduled for 10:30 AM MT.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Hockey is the ultimate team game, you need to have quality teammates to perform at your best. Its not like a Basketball when a single player can come in and take over a game, with 4 bench players with him.

How many times did people say that Gaudreau needed better line mates, you staple Brett Ritchie to his wing and he is going to look like trash.

That's why I don't get this if you can't show play with minor leaguers you aren't good enough.

This isn't a given before earned, you can't earn the spot if you are not given a fair chance. The only ones who get a fair chance are the useless muckers we have zero need for since we already have a bunch in Lucic, Lewis, and Ritchie.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Has Dube? He has been playing with plenty of lacklustre line mates, and looked fantastic in every game. And here he is, lining up next to Kadri.

By Sutters comments, it sounds like he put Dube on the line by default because he trusts him over the others guys who haven't been given a chance.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Disagree.

Guys like Pelletier, Phillips, and Ruzicka earned that opportunity with strong AHL seasons.

Training camp shouldn't be the only time of being able to "earn opportunity".

Playing against NHL rosters with Dube as the only vet, and a defense that can't move the puck was never going to lead to success for these forwards or the guys on PTOs.



Dube looked better than others against Seattle but honestly even he struggled to generate any offence or get anything going in that game.

Well, the “strong performance against scrubs” applies here as well. With Ruzicka, he has his past NHL performance (which didn’t impress Sutter a lot) as part of his history as well.

Sutter and Treliving also compare those strong past AHL performances against a guy like Eakin who scored 22 in his last non-injury marred season. They have to guess who is going to put up a consistent season this year and an experienced guy gets the default nod.

Pelletier and Ruzicka also have waiver exemption, so they are going to be up and down I suspect.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

By Sutters comments, it sounds like he put Dube on the line by default because he trusts him over the others guys who haven't been given a chance.

But if Dube looks good playing with the same lesser players doesn't that mean that he has earned that chance?

[Paulie Walnuts]

Dube hasn't looked much better, and he also hasn't been playing strictly with PTO and AHL players.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

“It’s not personal but here’s my opinion on a blind spot you have as a person.” Come on Bingo lol.

And posts that include nothing more than “so when you’re right you’re right and when you’re wrong you’re right? OK…..!” aren’t good contributions. It’s dorky, man. Scorp is very obviously not saying that and you have to try hard to miss him on this conversation.

Dorky?

Is that not personal in your analysis then?

I guess we're all getting a little careful around here. When I phrase a situation where I'm right if I'm right, but if I'm wrong and the player plays well I'm still right as he was protected, and he got to play in a great system I'd expect to get called on it.

Shouldn't be insult laden, but called out.

Guess I'm just a dork!

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Those sure look like personal statements to me.

Anyway if it takes "blind spots" to think Trevor Lewis and Erik Gudbranson aren't particularly effective defensive players when they post consistently below-average results against weak competition, then I guess I have cataracts for days.

I love defensive players who can hold their weight in the offensive zone and also contribute tangibly in their own end. They're playing easier minutes — that shouldn't be too much to ask. Derek Ryan could manage that. If the Flames had signed Johan Larsson or Zach Aston-Reese, perfect. But guys like Richardson, Lewis, Gudbranson ... the numbers just don't work in their favour.

Is it possible that 'the numbers' are less than perfect in analyzing these types of players?

I have found that the more a person relies on analytics, the more they tend to gravitate to certain types of players. And I think the reason is simple: the analytics capture some things better than other things.

We are a very long way away from having great analytics for hockey, simply because it is very much a team game, with flow. Analytics are great when dealing with singular plays and singular roles, like you see in baseball and football. But hockey is a game of constant motion. A player could be in perfect position, but something their line-mate, or the other team does can leave them useless.

Isolating player ability, in a non-isolated environment, is very challenging. And we simply aren't entirely there yet.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, the “strong performance against scrubs” applies here as well. With Ruzicka, he has his past NHL performance (which didn’t impress Sutter a lot) as part of his history as well.

Sutter and Treliving also compare those strong past AHL performances against a guy like Eakin who scored 22 in his last non-injury marred season. They have to guess who is going to put up a consistent season this year and an experienced guy gets the default nod.

Pelletier and Ruzicka also have waiver exemption, so they are going to be up and down I suspect.

Is Ruzicka waiver exempted?

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Dube hasn't looked much better, and he also hasn't been playing strictly with PTO and AHL players.

In my opinion Dube has looked much better no matter who is on his line but I guess that's where we differ.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Those sure look like personal statements to me.

Anyway if it takes "blind spots" to think Trevor Lewis and Erik Gudbranson aren't particularly effective defensive players when they post consistently below-average results against weak competition, then I guess I have cataracts for days.

I love defensive players who can hold their weight in the offensive zone and also contribute tangibly in their own end. They're playing easier minutes — that shouldn't be too much to ask. Derek Ryan could manage that. If the Flames had signed Johan Larsson or Zach Aston-Reese, perfect. But guys like Richardson, Lewis, Gudbranson ... the numbers just don't work in their favour.

All good man, nothing personal at all.

I've always been a little annoyed with the masses for the dislike of the bottom 1/4 of the roster. Have seen it on this site for 20 years.

Salary caps and player development result in some plugs at the bottom of the roster. You hope your team picks the right plugs with the right skill sets and intangibles to keep the upper roster moving without giving up games on their own.

I'm not blind.

I see pucks die on Lewis' stick, Pitlick was a mess last year, but Gudbranson become a huge presence for the team physically, was huge on the PK, and was solid in sheltered minutes in a third pairing role.

Zadorov was solid sheltered, and provided a physical element, plus he could move up the roster with injuries.

Those are valuable NHL players as it turned out.

I just find the push to replace all the unflashy hockey players on a roster tiresome. It's certainly not just you, nor are you the worst offender.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Dube hasn't looked much better, and he also hasn't been playing strictly with PTO and AHL players.

He has for the most part.

They sent him to Seattle with the scrubs, and then Edmonton for the Wranglers game with 2/3 of Calgary's top line.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

So it's literally an appeal to authority. By you and a few others. Noted.

As I said, despite being a lowly rando on a message board and all, we'll see how the player pans out.

I’ll bet on Darryl’s decision, based on track record.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, the “strong performance against scrubs” applies here as well. With Ruzicka, he has his past NHL performance (which didn’t impress Sutter a lot) as part of his history as well.

Sutter and Treliving also compare those strong past AHL performances against a guy like Eakin who scored 22 in his last non-injury marred season. They have to guess who is going to put up a consistent season this year and an experienced guy gets the default nod.

Pelletier and Ruzicka also have waiver exemption, so they are going to be up and down I suspect.

Which is fine.

But honestly don't act like you gave those guys all the opportunity in the world, and they somehow didn't take it.

Personally just not a fan of this approach of how they split up the games in camp with veterans on home games against below AHL quality lineups, and sending below AHL quality lineups to play NHL lineups on the road.

I don't think that you actually gave those guys a fair chance to really earn a spot in that scenario. At the very least I think guys like Schwindt, Zary, and Phillips probably showed enough to get a game with some vets out of the next three.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Is Ruzicka waiver exempted?

No he isn't.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by timbit

I’ll bet on Darryl’s decision, based on track record.

Yep. I don't always agree with all of his decisions as he's going to do things his way. However it's hard to argue with his track record of success.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Hockey is the ultimate team game, you need to have quality teammates to perform at your best. Its not like a Basketball when a single player can come in and take over a game, with 4 bench players with him.

How many times did people say that Gaudreau needed better line mates, you staple Brett Ritchie to his wing and he is going to look like trash.

That's why I don't get this if you can't show play with minor leaguers you aren't good enough.

This isn't a given before earned, you can't earn the spot if you are not given a fair chance. The only ones who get a fair chance are the useless muckers we have zero need for since we already have a bunch in Lucic, Lewis, and Ritchie.

There is more to training camp than just the 14 minutes of ice-time players get in 2 or 3 pre-season games. You are overstating your position significantly here, it's not like they are getting no opportunities at all, and the 'scrubs' are playing solely with Huberdeau.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

No he isn't.

Yeah, I misremembered that one. That said I doubt he’s in danger at this time of year.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Which is fine.

But honestly don't act like you gave those guys all the opportunity in the world, and they somehow didn't take it.

Personally just not a fan of this approach of how they split up the games in camp with veterans on home games against below AHL quality lineups, and sending below AHL quality lineups to play NHL lineups on the road.

I don't think that you actually gave those guys a fair chance to really earn a spot in that scenario. At the very least I think guys like Schwindt, Zary, and Phillips probably showed enough to get a game with some vets out of the next three.

How many chances do they need? The coaches can probably tell after two games who deserves to stay.