Training Camp Day 11 Notes - Flames assign 9 players to AHL. 6 players on waivers.

[Erick Estrada]

Why is Gudbranson being discussed in a 2022 training camp thread?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I think they can ask themselves if they actually put those players in a position to “pop” in camp.



A big reason Kylington “popped” last year is he got time with Tanev and it worked. If Kylington was in group 2 all of last training camp with AHLers he likely isn’t the great story he was last year.

Did Kylington spend the entirety of camp playing with Tanev? I honestly don't remember, but I don't think that is right. My recollection is that he played in almost every preseason game, which means that he was on several different pairings through camp.

Ruzicka, Milano, Phillips, and Pelletier were supposed to be fighting for top 9 minutes with the Flames, but none of them actually got to play with the Flames top 9.



They got games with young junior and AHL filled rosters, against teams best rosters on the road. While the top team and Brett sutter got easy matchups at home.

Well, that is not exactly true. Ruzicka centred the Flames top line in Edmonton, and was underwhelming. After a very good game in Vancouver Phillips lined up with Kadri at practice. I suspect that there are things the coaches see in practice that we all miss, or don't get the chance to see at all, which factor heavily into their lineup decisions for preseason games. Kylington played so much last year in large part because he had such a great camp. We are seeing much the same from Vladar this year.


Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Bingo

So in this world you say Gudbranson won't be an effective player and if he sucks you're right. But if he doesn't suck you're still right and the player defied the odds?

Ok ....

I don’t much care about being proven right or wrong (that idea was brought up by someone else, not me). The point is that one outlier year — where he was effective in a very specific, sheltered role — does not come close to annulling the 10 years where he was one of the least effective players in the league. They got it to work, although the underlying numbers from last year point to Gudbranson going from being well below average to merely average in Calgary. I find it hard to believe his performance last year is indicative of any sort of trend. He didn't turn into MacKenzie Weegar — he turned into essentially a solid #5/6 in a very strong system after consistently being a #7-calibre guy in systems both good and bad over the span of a decade.

I don't think it does a whole lot to affect someone's credibility if they said Gudbranson was a bad bet for Calgary and he turned out to be a slightly better player than average. He played against much weaker competition than he had in the past and I wouldn't be surprised if someone like Connor Mackey is already more effective in that same role. I'm glad he got his big deal in Columbus and I think they'll be in tough if they try to paint him as a top-four guy.

I dunno why we're discussing Gudbranson in a 2022 camp thread, though, so I'll leave it there. I wish him all the best.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Well, that is not exactly true. Ruzicka centred the Flames top line in Edmonton, and was underwhelming. After a very good game in Vancouver Phillips lined up with Kadri at practice. I suspect that there are things the coaches see in practice that we all miss, or don't get the chance to see at all, which factor heavily into their lineup decisions for preseason games. Kylington played so much last year in large part because he had such a great camp. We are seeing much the same from Vladar this year.

And they tried him on the wing in Vancouver to see if he could slide into a top nine winger role.

I think they had hope for Ruzicka specifically but he just didn't get it done.

Other than that Matt ... I can't disagree.

I have trouble with the expected evolution in the NHL camps (Flames not the only team dealing with this). You have NHLers go one night, then prospects the next with PTOs.

Does a guy need to dominate playing with scrubs or like skilled players in order to get to the NHL group? How do you do that when you're the road team that plays against NHLers but not with NHLers?

Seems like a pretty rough hurdle to me.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I don’t much care about being proven right or wrong (that idea was brought up by someone else, not me). The point is that one outlier year — where he was effective in a very specific, sheltered role — does not come close to annulling the 10 years where he was one of the least effective players in the league. They got it to work, although the underlying numbers from last year point to Gudbranson going from being well below average to merely average in Calgary. I find it hard to believe his performance last year is indicative of any sort of trend. He didn't turn into MacKenzie Weegar — he turned into essentially a solid #5/6 in a very strong system after consistently being a #7-calibre guy in systems both good and bad over the span of a decade.

I don't think it does a whole lot to affect someone's credibility if they said Gudbranson was a bad bet for Calgary and he turned out to be a slightly better bet than average. He played against much weaker competition than he had in the past and I wouldn't be surprised if someone like Connor Mackey is already more effective in that same role. I'm glad he got his big deal in Columbus and I think they'll be in tough if they try to paint him as a top-four guy.

That's just two more paragraphs explaining why you weren't wrong.

You sure on the bolded?

[TheScorpion]

Do you actually have anything to contribute to the conversation or are we just going to continue at this level? This feels oddly personal.

It's pretty standard practice to defend an argument when your credibility is called out over it.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I think they can ask themselves if they actually put those players in a position to “pop” in camp.

A big reason Kylington “popped” last year is he got time with Tanev and it worked. If Kylington was in group 2 all of last training camp with AHLers he likely isn’t the great story he was last year.

Ruzicka, Milano, Phillips, and Pelletier were supposed to be fighting for top 9 minutes with the Flames, but none of them actually got to play with the Flames top 9.

They got games with young junior and AHL filled rosters, against teams best rosters on the road. While the top team and Brett sutter got easy matchups at home.

This.

You want offensive guys to flourish you need to put them in a position to do that. Sutter always talks about roles, slotting, and putting players in positions to thrive. It seems he can do that with guys like Eakin and low level guys, but did he truly give a guy like Milano, Ruzicka, Phillips, Pelletier a chance to pop or show anything?

Like I said some of it wasn't his fault due to injuries, and easing guys into camp. Eakin was on the second line day 1 of camp, had most people thinking he was a placeholder for Mangiapane, but I guess not.

It has been a disjointed camp from the get go.

Now we have 4 offensive blackholes in the lineup. You need your bottom 6 to score, the top line was relied on to score every night. It's the way the NHL works.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Did Kylington spend the entirety of camp playing with Tanev? I honestly don't remember, but I don't think that is right. My recollection is that he played in almost every preseason game, which means that he was on several different pairings through camp.




Well, that is not exactly true. Ruzicka centred the Flames top line in Edmonton, and was underwhelming. After a very good game in Vancouver Phillips lined up with Kadri at practice. I suspect that there are things the coaches see in practice that we all miss, or don't get the chance to see at all, which factor heavily into their lineup decisions for preseason games. Kylington played so much last year in large part because he had such a great camp. We are seeing much the same from Vladar this year.


Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

Kylington was underwhelming to start camp last year, until he was put in a position to play with NHL caliber players.

Also its preseason, and Sutter has said so himself you can use a game to try some guys in offensive positions. In Edmonton he just kept rolling out Ruzicka with Huberdeau and Toffoli when he was doing nothing, he could have tried some new lines to mix it up.

It doesn't matter now anyways we have 3 preseason games left, and the team needs to get ready for the season opener the time to mix and match is coming to an end. They decided before camp started that Eakin was making the team regardless of performance and here we are.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bingo

And they tried him on the wing in Vancouver to see if he could slide into a top nine winger role.

I think they had hope for Ruzicka specifically but he just didn't get it done.

Other than that Matt ... I can't disagree.

I have trouble with the expected evolution in the NHL camps (Flames not the only team dealing with this). You have NHLers go one night, then prospects the next with PTOs.

Does a guy need to dominate playing with scrubs or like skilled players in order to get to the NHL group? How do you do that when you're the road team that plays against NHLers but not with NHLers?

Seems like a pretty rough hurdle to me.

Agreed. It's pretty senseless. It used to be that they would send 2 NHL lines and 2 prospect lines to most of the earlier pre-season games. But these road games with no real NHLers - almost always facing an NHL-laden home team - is just setting the kids up for failure.

Having said that, I don't fully buy the 'Sutter never gave them a chance to succeed' argument. They are at practice every day, they have played games with other players as good or better than them. SHOW SOMETHING! Give the coach a reason to give you the spotlight treatment.

Sutter doesn't want a veteran-laden lineup. He wants a lineup that will win games. Show him you can be part of that.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Do you actually have anything to contribute to the conversation or are we just going to continue at this level? This feels oddly personal.

It's pretty standard practice to defend an argument when your credibility is called out over it.

Nothing personal at all.

Sorry man but it comes across as if I'm right I'm right, and if I'm wrong I'm still right. Don't think it's mean to point that out.

I do think you have a blind spot when it comes to defensive hockey players as Enoch pointed out.

And I think I've been contributing just fine in this topic, thanks.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I have trouble with the expected evolution in the NHL camps (Flames not the only team dealing with this). You have NHLers go one night, then prospects the next with PTOs.

Does a guy need to dominate playing with scrubs or like skilled players in order to get to the NHL group? How do you do that when you're the road team that plays against NHLers but not with NHLers?

Seems like a pretty rough hurdle to me.

Yeah it doesn’t make sense to me.

People talk about how guys like Rooney, Sutter and McLain impressed…but those guys are playing against the B-Team’s 4th line in soft minutes on home ice.

The Seattle game is a good example to me. Seattle is playing probably 75% of their NHL roster that night.

The Flames forwards that night actually weren’t that bad but the defense they had playing with them had terrible nights IMO. Couldn’t move the puck, couldn’t keep the puck in the zone.

You’re asking these guys to stand out and be offensive creators but you’re putting them in no position to have that success.

Pelletier had a pretty poor camp IMO and is young enough that another year in the AHL is probably good for him (to start at least).

But no reason Phillips couldn’t have been kept here to keep batting it out with Milano and Eakins and get some more ice with our actual top 9 forwards for the next three pre-season games. He’s been the best of the bunch in camp IMO and has earned that with his AHL play.

Eakins and Milano have shown flashes so I’m okay with them being around for 3 more games too. I’ve thought Ruzicka looked lazy and unengaged at times in the games I saw him play, haven’t liked his camp.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Something not mentioned is that Sutter and Treliving are likely disappointed as well.



They wanted a Pelletier or Ruzicka to pop in camp. They wanted Milano to be a diamond in the rough PTO find for their top six.



It didn't happen.



So now they have to move around the deck chairs to cover up a hole on the third line with NHLers they can trust to play a sound system.



I don't think it's right to assume that this was the plan all along, and it's a conspiracy against young players. I'm sure they're a little down on the whole thing too.

Sutter said as much himself, in very clear terms when asked by a reporter what makes Dube a fit on the 2nd line - "Cause nobody else has yet... not one."

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Nothing personal at all.

Sorry man but it comes across as if I'm right I'm right, and if I'm wrong I'm still right. Don't think it's mean to point that out.

I do think you have a blind spot when it comes to defensive hockey players as Enoch pointed out.

And I think I've been contributing just fine in this topic, thanks.

“It’s not personal but here’s my opinion on a blind spot you have as a person.” Come on Bingo lol.

And posts that include nothing more than “so when you’re right you’re right and when you’re wrong you’re right? OK…..!” aren’t good contributions. It’s dorky, man. Scorp is very obviously not saying that and you have to try hard to miss him on this conversation.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Nothing personal at all.

Sorry man but it comes across as if I'm right I'm right, and if I'm wrong I'm still right. Don't think it's mean to point that out.

I do think you have a blind spot when it comes to defensive hockey players as Enoch pointed out.

And I think I've been contributing just fine in this topic, thanks.

Those sure look like personal statements to me.

Anyway if it takes "blind spots" to think Trevor Lewis and Erik Gudbranson aren't particularly effective defensive players when they post consistently below-average results against weak competition, then I guess I have cataracts for days.

I love defensive players who can hold their weight in the offensive zone and also contribute tangibly in their own end. They're playing easier minutes — that shouldn't be too much to ask. Derek Ryan could manage that. If the Flames had signed Johan Larsson or Zach Aston-Reese, perfect. But guys like Richardson, Lewis, Gudbranson ... the numbers just don't work in their favour.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Sutter said as much himself, in very clear terms when asked by a reporter what makes Dube a fit on the 2nd line - "Cause nobody else has yet... not one."

Because no one has had the opportunity to grab that position. I understand some players have underwhelmed like Ruzicka, but we have had a few chances to try some lineups and he has been stubborn to try it.

Is Kadri going to play with Backlund on his wing? What was the point of that?

If the players have sucked in practice they might show more in a game, its preseason we can try it for a game. Sometimes players show better in game settings.

Its disappointing to look at the team and say no one has popped, but you can't pop when you have no ammo.

Look at the Edmonton game, Eakin is playing with Dube and Rooney who have their positions cemented on the team, and Milano is playing with Zary and Schwindt to guys who got sent down yesterday. Who got the better opportunity?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Because no one has had the opportunity to grab that position. I understand some players have underwhelmed like Ruzicka, but we have had a few chances to try some lineups and he has been stubborn to try it.

Is Kadri going to play with Backlund on his wing? What was the point of that?

If the players have sucked in practice they might show more in a game, its preseason we can try it for a game. Sometimes players show better in game settings.

Its disappointing to look at the team and say no one has popped, but you can't pop when you have no ammo.

Look at the Edmonton game, Eakin is playing with Dube and Rooney who have their positions cemented on the team, and Milano is playing with Zary and Schwindt to guys who got sent down yesterday. Who got the better opportunity?

The game against the Canucks Eakin and Milano played on the same line (with Zary). I know who looked better.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Yeah it doesn’t make sense to me.

People talk about how guys like Rooney, Sutter and McLain impressed…but those guys are playing against the B-Team’s 4th line in soft minutes on home ice.

The Seattle game is a good example to me. Seattle is playing probably 75% of their NHL roster that night.

The Flames forwards that night actually weren’t that bad but the defense they had playing with them had terrible nights IMO. Couldn’t move the puck, couldn’t keep the puck in the zone.

You’re asking these guys to stand out and be offensive creators but you’re putting them in no position to have that success.

Pelletier had a pretty poor camp IMO and is young enough that another year in the AHL is probably good for him (to start at least).

But no reason Phillips couldn’t have been kept here to keep batting it out with Milano and Eakins and get some more ice with our actual top 9 forwards for the next three pre-season games. He’s been the best of the bunch in camp IMO and has earned that with his AHL play.

Eakins and Milano have shown flashes so I’m okay with them being around for 3 more games too. I’ve thought Ruzicka looked lazy and unengaged at times in the games I saw him play, haven’t liked his camp.

If players succeed when not put in a position to succeed then they’ve shown something to the coaches. If players trying to earn a spot succeed when put in a position to succeed just leads to questions of whether they’re riding coat tails. It’s an ultimate test that needs to be passed unless you want an Oiler given before earned situation.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Because no one has had the opportunity to grab that position...

Has Dube? He has been playing with plenty of lacklustre line mates, and looked fantastic in every game. And here he is, lining up next to Kadri.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

If players succeed when not put in a position to succeed then they’ve shown something to the coaches. If players trying to earn a spot succeed when put in a position to succeed just leads to questions of whether they’re riding coat tails. It’s an ultimate test that needs to be passed unless you want an Oiler given before earned situation.

Disagree.

Guys like Pelletier, Phillips, and Ruzicka earned that opportunity with strong AHL seasons.

Training camp shouldn't be the only time of being able to "earn opportunity".

Playing against NHL rosters with Dube as the only vet, and a defense that can't move the puck was never going to lead to success for these forwards or the guys on PTOs.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Has Dube? He has been playing with plenty of lacklustre line mates, and looked fantastic in every game. And here he is, lining up next to Kadri.

Dube looked better than others against Seattle but honestly even he struggled to generate any offence or get anything going in that game.

Personally I take a lot more interest in guys showing flashes with subpar lineups against NHL rosters than I have in the home game against the Canucks and Oilers where it's our full roster playing against rosters that aren't even AHL caliber.

[Textcritic]

There is another game today, no?

Is there nothing new from camp yet? Usually they have skated/practiced by now.