Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[Salt Water Cowboy #10]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You don't appear to be a serious person to have a discussion with.

You like carbon tax. And sound like you work for the liberal party.

[StickMan]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

So at what size does doing your part matter?
I see you've completely ignored my posts that point out the absurdity of your stance which seems to be "I can't fix the whole problem, so I'm not gonna fix my part"

To use a hockey analogy, why should any 4th liner put their body on the line. Making that last check isn't going to win them the game, it's the superstars who matter, so only they should have to work hard.

Your idea of a climate plan is about as sound as the Oilers "Team game"

I don't consider paying a tax helping with climate change. I don't see it reducing emissions in China. I don't see Canadian emissions as the problem. I do see ways that Canada could help China and other massive emitters to reduce their emissions. I am completely about saving the planet, and carbon tax on only Canadians will do nothing, it is lazy and inefficient and just a dumb idea in general.

[Izzle]

Originally Posted by Salt Water Cowboy #10

You like carbon tax. And sound like you work for the liberal party.

Lolwut? Pretty disingenuous. I could say you're a fan of conservatives like in the UK who are wrecking their own economy.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by StickMan

You are the most closed minded person on this forum, I don't consider what you contribute useful, I can predict what you will respond to any post, I just have to ask myself "what would Trudeau say". Do you have anything bad to say about Trudeau's carbon tax? Is Canada doing a great job on climate change? You are satisfied with our contribution?

You are the one that ends most of your posts with some stupid irrelevant shot at Trudeau, like saying he is "selfish" as if he's putting the tax in his pocket.

Is Canada doing a "great job?" Depends on the metric. We obviously have very high per capita emmisions, but I don't really like that that captures emissions that we "export" like O&G, instead of applying it to consumer nations. I think we need to find a way to punish countries on imports who do not tax carbon or have some other methods of equivalence, and pressure the international community to do the same, so that our resources compete on fair ground on the international market. There are loads of other things to look at, so it is far from perfect. But it's also far better than nothing. Do I need to get a room with Trudeau now?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Salt Water Cowboy #10

You like carbon tax. And sound like you work for the liberal party.

LOL. Totally nailed me. Except I work in O&G. Nice read though.

Posts like this are why I know posters like you have no ground to stand on, becuase that's the absolute best you can come up with.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by StickMan

I don't consider paying a tax helping with climate change. I don't see it reducing emissions in China. I don't see Canadian emissions as the problem. I do see ways that Canada could help China and other massive emitters to reduce their emissions. I am completely about saving the planet, and carbon tax on only Canadians will do nothing, it is lazy and inefficient and just a dumb idea in general.

1) well that's convenient
2) please enlighten us, how do we do that without spending money/paying a tax
3) I can see why someone would think that, particularly if they don't understand even the basic mechanics of it

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by StickMan

You are the most closed minded person on this forum, I don't consider what you contribute useful, I can predict what you will respond to any post, I just have to ask myself "what would Trudeau say". Do you have anything bad to say about Trudeau's carbon tax? Is Canada doing a great job on climate change? You are satisfied with our contribution?

That's rich coming from the guy spouting conservative talking points that are at best misleading, but more typically just flat out incorrect.

[StickMan]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

So at what size does doing your part matter?
I see you've completely ignored my posts that point out the absurdity of your stance which seems to be "I can't fix the whole problem, so I'm not gonna fix my part"

To use a hockey analogy, why should any 4th liner put their body on the line. Making that last check isn't going to win them the game, it's the superstars who matter, so only they should have to work hard.

Your idea of a climate plan is about as sound as the Oilers "Team game"

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

That's rich coming from the guy spouting conservative talking points that are at best misleading, but more typically just flat out incorrect.

Do you have an example of one of these conservative talking points I'm spouting? Just because anyone with any common sense can see that a carbon tax on only Canadians is not going to solve the global emissions problem, doesn't make that person conservative. It is completely obvious that the carbon tax is a sham, and the fact that we even argue over it is mind blowing. It shows that some people will just blindly follow the liberals off a cliff without any independent thought.

[Salt Water Cowboy #10]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

LOL. Totally nailed me. Except I work in O&G. Nice read though.

Posts like this are why I know posters like you have no ground to stand on, becuase that's the absolute best you can come up with.

Seriously? I work in oil and gas too. I’m not a supporter of carbon tax. And I don’t think the government has done a good job in general. Sorry for getting involved in Your discussion. You seem to label people that don’t Agree with you. So I just did the same thing.
I will say I have not read all the details about carbon tax. But I still don’t want it. Call me ignorant but I’m skeptical of most things the libs have done.
Enjoy your day

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by StickMan

I don't think you understand the carbon tax, you somehow feel virtuous paying it like you are helping, but in reality you are just paying another tax so Trudeau can waste the money.

What do you see as the end result of the carbon tax? You see less vehicle and home pollution in Canada ONLY? Do you see the replacement form of energy being completely green? Then what? You've helped prevent about 0.001% of global emissions? And as result everyone in Canada is poor and struggling as inflation continues to skyrocket and global emissions continue to increase year over year? Carbon tax is not a climate plan, it won't make any noticable difference reducing global emissions, if you think otherwise you are delusional. Trudeau is a selfish idiot, nothing he does is in the best interest of anyone but Trudeau.

I just thought of a really dangerous drinking game to play while on this forum.

[StickMan]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

1) well that's convenient
2) please enlighten us, how do we do that without spending money/paying a tax
3) I can see why someone would think that, particularly if they don't understand even the basic mechanics of it

First you have to agree that the problem is global, it is not a Canadian only problem. Do you agree on that?

Then you have to agree that Canada is directly responsible for under 2% of global emissions, and that home heating and fuel account for less that half of that 2%.

Then you tell me if a carbon tax targeting that less then 1% of the problem, which is global emissions, is going to help reduce the problem, which is global emissions, by any measurable amount. Is it?

You can dig even deeper exploring wether or not electric vehicles or electricity in general are truly green. Or of we are just displacing that less then 1% emissions and not really eliminating it. Or the cost of buying an electric vehicle or how well they don't perform in the winter or the power grid... But that is another discussion.

The end result of Trudeau's carbon tax is that Canadians will be poorer and the global emissions will be unchanged. And some rich people will be able to signal how virtuous they are by solar panels on their roof and a Tesla in the driveway.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by StickMan

Do you have an example of one of these conservative talking points I'm spouting? Just because anyone with any common sense can see that a carbon tax on only Canadians is not going to solve the global emissions problem, doesn't make that person conservative. It is completely obvious that the carbon tax is a sham, and the fact that we even argue over it is mind blowing. It shows that some people will just blindly follow the liberals off a cliff without any independent thought.

Literally everything you're saying is a conservative talking point:
1) Canada isn't the problem (we can't fix the problem so why bother doing our part)
2) It's all China's fault
3) The carbon tax is stupid
4) Trudeau is just virtue signaling/greedy/whatever other insult you want to throw that way

As to whether or not the bolded part is true, I guess it is obvious, provided you actually don't know much about the carbon tax.
As to why we are arguing about it, I'm mostly arguing about it because you clearly don't understand much about it, so I'm mostly just pointing out all of the ways you are very clearly wrong, or just ignoring reality to get out of accepting that Canada has some responsibility in global emissions.

Is it a perfect system, no, that's the only obvious part, and I'll debate that back and forth with folks all day.
You however are mostly just putting your fingers in your ears and saying "Nuh Uh, China is the problem".

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by StickMan

First you have to agree that the problem is global, it is not a Canadian only problem. Do you agree on that?

Then you have to agree that Canada is directly responsible for under 2% of global emissions, and that home heating and fuel account for less that half of that 2%.

Then you tell me if a carbon tax targeting that less then 1% of the problem, which is global emissions, is going to help reduce the problem, which is global emissions, by any measurable amount. Is it?

You can dig even deeper exploring wether or not electric vehicles or electricity in general are truly green. Or of we are just displacing that less then 1% emissions and not really eliminating it. Or the cost of buying an electric vehicle or how well they don't perform in the winter or the power grid... But that is another discussion.

The end result of Trudeau's carbon tax is that Canadians will be poorer and the global emissions will be unchanged. And some rich people will be able to signal how virtuous they are by solar panels on their roof and a Tesla in the driveway.

How will we be poorer?

[StickMan]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Literally everything you're saying is a conservative talking point:
1) Canada isn't the problem (we can't fix the problem so why bother doing our part)
2) It's all China's fault
3) The carbon tax is stupid
4) Trudeau is just virtue signaling/greedy/whatever other insult you want to throw that way

As to whether or not the bolded part is true, I guess it is obvious, provided you actually don't know much about the carbon tax.
As to why we are arguing about it, I'm mostly arguing about it because you clearly don't understand much about it, so I'm mostly just pointing out all of the ways you are very clearly wrong, or just ignoring reality to get out of accepting that Canada has some responsibility in global emissions.

Is it a perfect system, no, that's the only obvious part, and I'll debate that back and forth with folks all day.
You however are mostly just putting your fingers in your ears and saying "Nuh Uh, China is the problem".

1) you seriously think Canada is the problem when it comes to global emissions? Am I missing something?

2) China is by far the biggest emitter on the planet, again am I missing something?

3) a tax on Canadians for home heating and fuel, as a way to reduce global emissions, when Canada's home heating and fuel are less then 1% of global emissions, again again I'm I missing something?

4) Trudeau....

Ya that is all so conservative, not blatantly obvious common sense. Good argument.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by StickMan

First you have to agree that the problem is global, it is not a Canadian only problem. Do you agree on that?
100% I agree

Then you have to agree that Canada is directly responsible for under 2% of global emissions, and that home heating and fuel account for less that half of that 2%.
Sure, if you agree that we account for ~0.5% of the world population.

Then you tell me if a carbon tax targeting that less then 1% of the problem, which is global emissions, is going to help reduce the problem, which is global emissions, by any measurable amount. Is it?

Yes, it is a measurable amount. Is it a significant amount in absolute terms? Depends on your definition of significant, but in the sake of being fair, I'll say no.

You can dig even deeper exploring wether or not electric vehicles or electricity in general are truly green. Or of we are just displacing that less then 1% emissions and not really eliminating it. Or the cost of buying an electric vehicle or how well they don't perform in the winter or the power grid... But that is another discussion.

Yeah, remember how I said you parrot conservative talking points...this probably doesn't qualify...I'll assume you just don't understand how power production works, or input costs/materials, etc

The end result of Trudeau's carbon tax is that Canadians will be poorer and the global emissions will be unchanged. And some rich people will be able to signal how virtuous they are by solar panels on their roof and a Tesla in the driveway.

I would argue that the end result is Canadians, who are financially much better off than the vas majority of the world's population, are in a position to have 4x greater impact on emissions than most other similarly sized populations. 2% of emissions 0.5% of population. Seems like we are doing more than our share of contributing to the problem, maybe we, as a country that is much more affluent than most, can afford to at least do our share to help fix the problem.

So I've agreed to all of your points, and I've come to the opposite conclusion as you. Tell me again how it's obviously stupid and you can't believe how we are arguing about this?

Oh, I've also refrained from just hand waiving away the premise of the argument by saying "Canada isn't the problem" like you have.

[StickMan]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

How will we be poorer?

Has a tax ever made you richer? How about a tax on a tax? How about a tax that just gets passed down to the consumer and causes inflation? How about a tax that encourages you too spend money to reduce the tax (sure if you are rich)? How about a rebate that you then spend on gas and heating and gets double taxed again?

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by StickMan

1) you seriously think Canada is the problem when it comes to global emissions? Am I missing something?
I think Canada is a part of the problem. And on a per capita basis is a larger part of the problem than most countries in the world.

2) China is by far the biggest emitter on the planet, again am I missing something?
A few things actually
1) we are worse than chain on a per capita basis
2) we don't have a lot of say in how china runs things, does that mean we aren't responsible for our own mess? How can we influence China to make changes when we won't, there response will be "You guys are worse than us per capita, why don't you do something to clean up your part of the mess"

3) a tax on Canadians for home heating and fuel, as a way to reduce global emissions, when Canada's home heating and fuel are less then 1% of global emissions, again again I'm I missing something?
Missing? I would say ignoring, but I've already covered that

4) Trudeau....


Ya that is all so conservative, not blatantly obvious common sense. Good argument.

I'll give you credit, you didn't go so far as to say the carbon tax didn't prevent Hurricane Fiona, but otherwise you're presenting pretty much the same arguments/false comparisons as Kenney, Poilievre et.al. and even capping it all of with "blah blah Trudeau".

[BlindMilwaukee]

Originally Posted by StickMan

Has a tax ever made you richer? How about a tax on a tax? How about a tax that just gets passed down to the consumer and causes inflation? How about a tax that encourages you too spend money to reduce the tax (sure if you are rich)? How about a rebate that you then spend on gas and heating and gets double taxed again?

Maybe billion dollar corporations can not pass down the tax onto consumers to continue to hit record profits every year.

That's who you should direct you're discontent towards.

[delayedreflex]

Originally Posted by StickMan

I don't consider paying a tax helping with climate change. I don't see it reducing emissions in China. I don't see Canadian emissions as the problem. I do see ways that Canada could help China and other massive emitters to reduce their emissions. I am completely about saving the planet, and carbon tax on only Canadians will do nothing, it is lazy and inefficient and just a dumb idea in general.

Do you not believe in the principles of economics? Do you think that people, and especially corporations, won't do things that save them money (eg. reduce their carbon emissions)?

Do you also think voting is useless, because it's just one vote out of millions that won't change things one way or the other?

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by StickMan

Has a tax ever made you richer? How about a tax on a tax? How about a tax that just gets passed down to the consumer and causes inflation? How about a tax that encourages you too spend money to reduce the tax (sure if you are rich)? How about a rebate that you then spend on gas and heating and gets double taxed again?

How would you reduce Canada's carbon footprint? If you don't agree that that should be a goal, then there's no discussion to be had here.