Russia invades Ukraine

[nik-]

Originally Posted by chemgear

https://twitter.com/user/status/1575113910658678786

This is so horrific. The people doing this and the people taking in these children once they get to Russia are ####ing human garbage.

[Geraldsh]

Originally Posted by nik-

This is so horrific. The people doing this and the people taking in these children once they get to Russia are ####ing human garbage.

James Clavell wrote a story called "The Children's Story" showing how easily small children can be indoctrinated by trusted adults such as school teachers. Scary scary stuff.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Geraldsh

James Clavell wrote a story called "The Children's Story" showing how easily small children can be indoctrinated by trusted adults such as school teachers. Scary scary stuff.

That’s how you get oilers fans

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Nordstream 1 already did that.
Nordstream 2 was just a parallel line that increased capacity of the existing lines/route.

No, Nordstream 1 alone was not sufficient to completely bypass the continental pipes.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Of all the false flags that Russia has done (or at least attempted) that were so incredibly idiotic and apparent who was at fault, I'm not sure if I find it hilarious or sad that this seems to be the one that people are falling for.

Literally one country in this conflict is going around and shooting at people or things they aren't supposed to, has blackmailed the EU with an energy war, and escalates things on a daily basis. Look at Petrov'/Russia's goofy reaction in all this. Plain as day who is responsible. Yet the US or Poland is to blame?

F'ing LOL

Yeah ####ing LOL. Russia is shooting all alone, no one else is fighting back.

All the sabotage that's been happening inside Russia (factories, raillines etc.) was also all Putin? Despite his attempts to also keep quiet about any of it happening?

'Cause here's the thing: Nordstreams are Russian infrastructure. They wanted it, they largely built it, they mostly own it.

If Russia wants to sabotage a gaspipe, why not pick the Baltic Pipe, the one between Norway and Poland that was just finished? Or pick literally anything else than one of your own very expensive projects.

If you can achieve all the same goals by destroying your stuff or someone else's stuff, it's odd to deliberately destroy your own stuff just to make some obscure point.

A point which is so obscure that no one is even sure what point was made by this sabotage, exactly. You'd think if Putin was trying to send a message, it would be rather more straightforward.

Putin might be crazy (although I think that's not really true, just a terrible human being), but he's never shown to be prone to random acts of violence or obscure messaging. Putin isn't just randomly blowing up stuff, not even in Ukraine really.

[icarus]

Well there you go, Russia annexing four more Ukrainian territories. Shocker.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Itse

Yeah ####ing LOL. Russia is shooting all alone, no one else is fighting back.

All the sabotage that's been happening inside Russia (factories, raillines etc.) was also all Putin? Despite his attempts to also keep quiet about any of it happening?

'Cause here's the thing: Nordstreams are Russian infrastructure. They wanted it, they largely built it, they mostly own it.

If Russia wants to sabotage a gaspipe, why not pick the Baltic Pipe, the one between Norway and Poland that was just finished? Or pick literally anything else than one of your own very expensive projects.

If you can achieve all the same goals by destroying your stuff or someone else's stuff, it's odd to deliberately destroy your own stuff just to make some obscure point.

A point which is so obscure that no one is even sure what point was made by this sabotage, exactly. You'd think if Putin was trying to send a message, it would be rather more straightforward.

Putin might be crazy (although I think that's not really true, just a terrible human being), but he's never shown to be prone to random acts of violence or obscure messaging. Putin isn't just randomly blowing up stuff, not even in Ukraine really.

It is no coincidence that the sabotage took place the exact day the BalticPipe pipeline opened and ALL 3 nearly simultaneous explosions conveniently occurred just a tiny bit outside Bornholm's nautical borders, thus not risking a direct attack on a NATO country.

Putin has lost all leverage with Nordstream 1/2 and with the timing of this attack it is extremely likely he is doing this as a veiled threat against all under sea gas, internet cabling, and electricity infrastructure in the area. Implication being if you continue your support for Ukraine, we can start sabotaging other underseas infrastructure like BalticPipe/Europipe II and cut electricity/internet, and gas supplies from Norway to the mainland European countries like Poland and others.

Norway is now supplying nearly a quarter of all gas ship European mainland and factor in heavily into European projections of "having enough energy" to last through winter. Kinda throws a wrench into that if your projected intake suddenly drops by that much.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by icarus

Well there you go, Russia annexing four more Ukrainian territories. Shocker.

I don't know what the problem is, every local they pointed a gun at probably loves the idea.

[FlameOn]

So NATO stepping in and releasing a statement calling NS1/2 as sabotage after reviewing Danish evidence tells you directly who the culprit was. Only reason NATO gets involved issuing a statement is if the culprit is Russia. Not to mention Europeans now have said Russian naval assets were spotted in the area before the explosions.

NATO not directly saying who it is yet is there is probably still reluctance by some NATO members for military escalation.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Geraldsh

James Clavell wrote a story called "The Children's Story" showing how easily small children can be indoctrinated by trusted adults such as school teachers. Scary scary stuff.

I have this on expert authority from another thread that this is not possible. When in doubt, always ignore expertise and take the direction of the 20-simething incel type. /snark

What the Russians have done should be considered a war crime. The removal of children from their homes and putting them through an indoctrination program is the lowest of lows. Children remain exceptionally impressionable all the way into adulthood. Influences vary through development, but until their cognitive development is complete they are very open to manipulation and having their thoughts/impulses manipulated.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Azure

Russia invaded Ukraine Feb 24, and the Euro has been dropping fast since.

You have valid points, but I think people forget how the US will act to protect their interests.

What does this even mean? The US has been acting in its own interest since the 1700s. This isn't a new concept and no one is "forgetting" that they act in their interest.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

What does this even mean? The US has been acting in its own interest since the 1700s. This isn't a new concept and no one is "forgetting" that they act in their interest.

It means they will sabotage a pipeline if it gives them leverage over the people involved.

[FlamesAddiction]

With the Nord Stream pipelines, I just try to think about who benefits the most from them, and who is benefits more from its destruction.

Germany - Benefits from having it, and does not benefit from having it destroyed.

Russia - Benefits from having it, does not benefit from having it destroyed, at least not in the long term.

Poland - Does not benefit from the pipeline and benefits from having it destroyed. They even said before that the Nord Stream threatens their security. The pipelines that run through their territory become more valuable and gives them more power in the region.

Ukraine - Similar to Poland, but at this point, I think they would take it or leave it.

Baltic States - Similar to Poland, but they have less to gain from its destruction.

The U.S.A. - I don't think they care about it that much and see it as a European affair. They probably don't like it because it is a wedge issue in NATO, but I don't think they lose sleep over it either.

Germany has been flakey regarding their dependence on Russian gas and I think it has some of their neighbours concerned about their resolve if the war drags on over the winter or multiple winters. They already broke sanctions once for Nord Stream. I suppose this could be a reason Russia would damage the line as it might make Germany want to break the sanctions again to fix it.

Russia could have done it as a scare tactic or scorched earth kind of play. If they were going to do a false flag like this though, it would have been easier and likely more effective to damage the pipeline that goes through Poland and blame it on a NATO or Ukrainian attack. It would make the Nord Stream line more valuable and also take away power from Poland. There would be no need for clandestine operations in, or so close, to NATO territory as they could have damaged it on their own territory and attributed to the other sabotage incidents they have experienced.

The idea that Russia is trying to show it can sabotage NATO infrastructure seems a little far fetched. We already know they can. They have subs all over the place that can't easily be tracked. They could have sabotaged a cable or something else to make the same point, and not something that they are personally invested in.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

With the Nord Stream pipelines, I just try to think about who benefits the most from them, and who is benefits more from its destruction.

Germany - Benefits from having it, and does not benefit from having it destroyed.

Russia - Benefits from having it, does not benefit from having it destroyed, at least not in the long term.

Poland - Does not benefit from the pipeline and benefits from having it destroyed. They even said before that the Nord Stream threatens their security. The pipelines that run through their territory become more valuable and gives them more power in the region.

Ukraine - Similar to Poland, but at this point, I think they would take it or leave it.

Baltic States - Similar to Poland, but they have less to gain from its destruction.

The U.S.A. - I don't think they care about it that much and see it as a European affair. They probably don't like it because it is a wedge issue in NATO, but I don't think they lose sleep over it either.

Germany has been flakey regarding their dependence on Russian gas and I think it has some of their neighbours concerned about their resolve if the war drags on over the winter or multiple winters. They already broke sanctions once for Nord Stream. I suppose this could be a reason Russia would damage the line as it might make Germany want to break the sanctions again to fix it.

Russia could have done it as a scare tactic or scorched earth kind of play. If they were going to do a false flag like this though, it would have been easier and likely more effective to damage the pipeline that goes through Poland and blame it on a NATO or Ukrainian attack. It would make the Nord Stream line more valuable and also take away power from Poland. There would be no need for clandestine operations in, or so close, to NATO territory as they could have damaged it on their own territory and attributed to the other sabotage incidents they have experienced.

The idea that Russia is trying to show it can sabotage NATO infrastructure seems a little far fetched. We already know they can. They have subs all over the place that can't easily be tracked. They could have sabotaged a cable or something else to make the same point, and not something that they are personally invested in.

This misses a lot though

The pipeline is looking dead in the water and isn't being used at the moment anyways. It can also be fixed so it's not as though the damaging of the pipeline harms or helps really anyone in and of itself at the moment. The question that needs to be asked is why someone would do it, and why Russia is clearly ok with being blamed?

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by Itse

'Cause here's the thing: Nordstreams are Russian infrastructure. They wanted it, they largely built it, they mostly own it.

If Russia wants to sabotage a gaspipe, why not pick the Baltic Pipe, the one between Norway and Poland that was just finished? Or pick literally anything else than one of your own very expensive projects.

Attack on the Baltic Pipe would be considered a direct attack on NATO, much like how sabotaging a transatlantic telecommunications cable would be. Russia attacking its own assets is a grey area.

Let's remember it is Russia that cut the oil and gas flow as blackmail. This is doubling down on that blackmail by damaging the infrastructure and a warning that he can the same to any Europe infrastructure.

Putin might be crazy (although I think that's not really true, just a terrible human being), but he's never shown to be prone to random acts of violence or obscure messaging. Putin isn't just randomly blowing up stuff, not even in Ukraine really.

You have not been following the war well if you think this was a random act. It makes perfect sense from a crazed lunatic to blackmail Europe, much the same way it makes perfect sense for a madman to blow up the dam that directly feeds Zelensky's home town as a retaliation for losing Izyum.

And that's exactly why I do fully believe Putin will use tactical nukes soon. Even Bond villains act more sane in movies then he does right now.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Russia could have done it as a scare tactic or scorched earth kind of play. If they were going to do a false flag like this though, it would have been easier and likely more effective to damage the pipeline that goes through Poland and blame it on a NATO or Ukrainian attack. It would make the Nord Stream line more valuable and also take away power from Poland. There would be no need for clandestine operations in, or so close, to NATO territory as they could have damaged it on their own territory and attributed to the other sabotage incidents they have experienced.

Putin isn't looking for a war with NATO. He is looking to get Europe to stand down and submit to his demands.

The idea that Russia is trying to show it can sabotage NATO infrastructure seems a little far fetched. We already know they can. They have subs all over the place that can't easily be tracked. They could have sabotaged a cable or something else to make the same point, and not something that they are personally invested in.

A day before the war, Russia boasted about their invincible hypersonic missiles and how they can be used for unstoppable nuclear strikes.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/scien...ukraine-russia

A few weeks after, they used one for an unimportant target in Lyiv just to give a message they can use them.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60806151

Putin has shown many many times he will try to use force and actions to 'prove' he isn't bluffing.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Attack on the Baltic Pipe would be considered a direct attack on NATO, much like how sabotaging a transatlantic telecommunications cable would be. Russia attacking its own assets is a grey area.

Let's remember it is Russia that cut the oil and gas flow as blackmail. This is doubling down on that blackmail by damaging the infrastructure and a warning that he can the same to any Europe infrastructure.



You have not been following the war well if you think this was a random act. It makes perfect sense from a crazed lunatic to blackmail Europe, much the same way it makes perfect sense for a madman to blow up the dam that directly feeds Zelensky's home town as a retaliation for losing Izyum.

And that's exactly why I do fully believe Putin will use tactical nukes soon. Even Bond villains act more sane in movies then he does right now.

Yeah I just can't agree.

It only makes sense in retrospect, but when you look at it from before this event and ask "what can we blow up or destroy that will signal our ability to do this", why pick Nordstream? It's so damned valuable to Russia.

Blow up a couple of those seized superyachts for example, they're spectacular targets.

There are probably thousands of other options. And why blow up both pipes, if the point was to demonstrate ability? Wouldn't just blowing up one of the two pipes achieved all the same things?

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Firebot

You have not been following the war well if you think this was a random act. It makes perfect sense from a crazed lunatic to blackmail Europe, much the same way it makes perfect sense for a madman to blow up the dam that directly feeds Zelensky's home town as a retaliation for losing Izyum.

Just to add in the case of the attack on the Kryvyi Rih hydroelectric dam attack it might not have been completely out of madman spite. The attack on that facility also caused a massive surge of the Inhulets river with a swell 3-5m higher than regular water levels. This washed out all the pontoon bridges the Ukrainian army was using to funnel troops into the Kherson front delaying their southern offensive by up to 5 days, giving Russians time to rush reinforcements there and prevented a complete collapse of their lines there like in the north.

[Itse]

Yet another one of these...

A top manager at a company that reportedly transported Russian military equipment for the war in Ukraine has been found dead.

Pavel Pchelnikov, 52, was the director of communications at Digital Logistics, a subsidiary of Russian Railways.

His body was found at 6.30 a.m. local time on Wednesday on the balcony of his apartment in central Moscow, local newspaper#Moskovsky Komsomolets#reported.

Police are investigating the death with Russian media reporting that the nature of his injuries suggested that he had committed suicide without specifying further.

However, the website Top Cargo 200, which uses open source intelligence to track and publicize the deaths of senior Russian officers in their war in Ukraine, said Pchelnikov had been killed by a gunshot.

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukra...ot-war-1747535

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Itse

Yet another one of these...

Pchelnikov had been killed by a gunshot.

He just tripped and fell onto a bullet. Happens all the time.