Saddledome literally falling apart

[Jason14h]

City of Calgary should offer to buy the Flames, run it like Green Bay does with the Packers.

Then they are funding an entire new arena $650m, and paying $750? million for the team

So does the city want to pay 1.4B for the Flames and a new Arena or $350m for an arena?

Not saying it is a bad idea, but were basically asking 'taxpayers' to spend another billion for the same end product, and not generate a lot of cash flow for that investment

Sure the team would appreciate but so what - Only matters if the city ever 'sells' the team and uses the $ for other things which really defeats to purpose of having the team.

The owners own the team cause it appreciates in value as an asset, not to generate income/cash flow off of. Owners can sell to another Calgary owner, make the $$, and the end product (hockey team and arena) remains the same for the city.

[curves2000]

A huge part of this is just flat out BS from the ownership group and they know it. They are usually Conservative minded individuals who believe in free markets and little government interventions and handouts, as do I. When it comes to their projects, they are looking for taxpayers dollars and significant contributions. It get it, I really do.

This saga has been going on since around 2008/09 I believe? The Dome was approx 25 years old than and I believe the lease agreement with the city was expiring in 2014 which would put the Dome at 31 years old.

Toronto's Scotiabank arena is approaching 24 years old, Montreal's 23 years old, Vancouver's 28 years old.

Is anybody hearing end of life scenario's for any of these buildings in these markets? Any talk of we need to demolish these buildings in 5-8 years due to age? Are chunks of the building literally falling apart or are we just not maintaining our's in Calgary very well, which is the ownership's responsibility and is partially offset by a facility fee that users to the building pay. Where is the money going?

We are being fed some serious garbage and some members on city council over all these years have been 100% complicit in this as well. We all like to think we don't have high levels of government corruption in our officials but there are a lot of scenario's where I really wonder what is happening.

I do think we could benefit from a more modern building and I know that the buildings in other markets where designed and built during a different era, that doesn't mean that the ownership group can't be making large capital investments into the building to extend it's life, improve operations and experiences as well. Perhaps they have on some areas and neglected others.

[Two Fivenagame]

Originally Posted by dino7c

The building is not adequate for many modern entertainment events beyond hockey...has as much to do with the design as the age. If the Flames were to leave the city would eventually be building an event center anyway with 100% funding.

And oh sweet summer child...money "saved" on an arena is not going to teachers and nurses

If the city had to build a modern event center, then it wouldn't have to be dedicated to hockey.

And what exactly is wrong with allocating tax payer dollars to something that's proven to help the public? So you don't like my teachers and nurses example, how about fire halls, police stations, hospitals, public recreation facilities etc?

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Two Fivenagame

If the city had to build a modern event center, then it wouldn't have to be dedicated to hockey.

And what exactly is wrong with allocating tax payer dollars to something that's proven to help the public? So you don't like my teachers and nurses example, how about fire halls, police stations, hospitals, public recreation facilities etc?

nothing is wrong with it, that just isn't how the real world works.


City is building a modern event center in the next 10 years...all or some will be paid with taxpayer money. Best plan would be to pick some and keep the NHL franchise that injects millions into the economy.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

It's kinda interesting how this topic brings people out of the "off-topic" forums and into the actual Flames forum. Usually against a new arena deal as well.

No, it's usually if there is something controversial that they can throw fuel on the fire to see just how much #### they can disturb. It doesn't have to be the arena, anytime opinions get heated they flock to the FOI board to try and elevate the chaos factor. It's tiring.

[nik-]

Not wanting taxpayer dollars to go to a professional sports arena isn't controversial.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by curves2000

This saga has been going on since around 2008/09 I believe? The Dome was approx 25 years old than and I believe the lease agreement with the city was expiring in 2014 which would put the Dome at 31 years old.

Toronto's Scotiabank arena is approaching 24 years old, Montreal's 23 years old, Vancouver's 28 years old.

Is anybody hearing end of life scenario's for any of these buildings in these markets? Any talk of we need to demolish these buildings in 5-8 years due to age? Are chunks of the building literally falling apart or are we just not maintaining our's in Calgary very well, which is the ownership's responsibility and is partially offset by a facility fee that users to the building pay. Where is the money going?

The Saddledome wasn't built to last forever. I am not sure what the projected lifespan was when it was designed. I would be surprised if it was much more than 40 years.

Some of the other structures you mentioned were designed to last and the costs relate to that. The Saddledome cost $97 million to build, which is about $280 million in 2022 money. That would be a cheap arena by today's standard and it shouldn't be a surprise that arenas which cost 1.5-2 times the amount the Saddledome cost in 2022 dollars are designed to be more durable.

Also keep in mind that a large part of Saddledome cost was for the crazy roof. It is 3 acres of pre-cast cement and was at the time (I don't know, maybe still is), the largest free span roof of its kind in the world. If they went with a more conventional design and put the extra money into other aspects, maybe we wouldn't be talking about this for another 20 years. But they didn't and it is what it is now. I guess it's up to Calgarians to decide if they want to move forward, but wishing what could have or should have happened doesn't fix anything.

[Moneyhands23]

Its gonna suck having to hang 2 cup banners at Winsport

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The Saddledome wasn't built to last forever. I am not sure what the projected lifespan was when it was designed. I would be surprised if it was much more than 40 years.

Some of the other structures you mentioned were designed to last and the costs relate to that. The Saddledome cost $97 million to build, which is about $280 million in 2022 money. That would be a cheap arena by today's standard and it shouldn't be a surprise that arenas which cost 1.5-2 times the amount the Saddledome cost in 2022 dollars are designed to be more durable.

Also keep in mind that a large part of Saddledome cost was for the crazy roof. It is 3 acres of pre-cast cement and was at the time (I don't know, maybe still is), the largest free span roof of its kind in the world. If they went with a more conventional design and put the extra money into other aspects, maybe we wouldn't be talking about this for another 20 years. But they didn't and it is what it is now. I guess it's up to Calgarians to decide if they want to move forward, but wishing what could have or should have happened doesn't fix anything.

I fully concur but the lifespan of buildings like arenas are designed with high stress loads. The point I was making, if you don't maintain and don't repair or replace, than everything will go down the toilet.

The other buildings I have mentioned are privately owned and well maintained cause it's in the owners financial interest to maintain them in order to generate huge revenue and incomes for the owners.

The Flames are letting the Dome fall apart in the hopes of getting a new arena to increase their revenue and profit potential.

If the buildings in Europe and elsewhere in the world can be maintained and refurbished for thousands of years, it makes sense that a building of concrete, glass, steel and other modern materials can be as well. It's not like the roof has collapsed due to a hurricane or an explosion.

We do need and deserve a new building and hope we get one soon but I don't buy it's failing excuse

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Also keep in mind that a large part of Saddledome cost was for the crazy roof.

Such a Calgary thing to do. I could imagine being in that meeting.

"Guys, check out this sweet design! The whole building will look like a giant saddle! YAHOO!!!"

- "Um, you know that half the fans won't be able to see the other half and the roof won't support the load of major concerts, right?"

"But, bu bu but, its a SADDLE! BUILD IT!"

[dino7c]

I don't see many 40 year old let alone 60 year old arenas hosting major events (100s of millions in Reno's don't count)...some of you are acting like they want to replace a perfectly good arena for a slightly better one which isn't the case.

Calgary already has the worst sports facilities of any big city in NA

It's time, it's happening...better come to terms with it

Billionaires didn't become billionaires giving money away and making bad deals

[FlamesAddiction]

I can't find the source now, but there was talk about Rogers Arena in Vancouver and the lifespan. Some speculate that within about 20 years, it will need major renos or have to be replaced. And it just recently had some renos, albeit mostly cosmetic. That would put it at about 46 years old when Vancouver will be in the same position Calgary is in now. Not a massive difference.

Rogers Arena was also relatively cheap compared to what people are paying now, but it was also 100% privately funded, so no one complained. The next one may not be however.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Billionaires didn't become billionaires giving money away and making bad deals

Most billionaires are born billionaires.

[Bingo]

Every time the arena topic comes up I honestly find it shocking that some feel a complicated issue like this can only have one villian.

[AFireInside]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I don't see many 40 year old let alone 60 year old arenas hosting major events (100s of millions in Reno's don't count)...some of you are acting like they want to replace a perfectly good arena for a slightly better one which isn't the case.

Calgary already has the worst sports facilities of any big city in NA

It's time, it's happening...better come to terms with it

Billionaires didn't become billionaires giving money away and making bad deals

But haven't those billionaires been saying it's a great investment for the city? Which is obviously nonsense because if it was a great investment they'd easily fund it themselves. It's a terrible investment and I don't blame anyone for saying they don't want to fund it. Many arenas have been privately funded.

I've been to a few arenas in NA there isn't one that would bring me back because it was so amazing. I certainly didn't see anything special about rogers place in Edmonton.

The reason it's not built is because the owners backed out due to the increased cost. This is all a delay tactic.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Every time the arena topic comes up I honestly find it shocking that some feel a complicated issue like this can only have one villian.

Also that some people don't feel different actions should be weighted differently depending on their impact level. "One side did something, but so did the other" and totally ignore the scale. It's odd.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by nik-

Also that some people don't feel different actions should be weighted differently depending on their impact level. "One side did something, but so did the other" and totally ignore the scale. It's odd.

Yeah honestly I don't even mind those that lean to a side, that's all good, we all do.

But to honestly think one side has made ALL the mistakes is unbelievable to me.

Plenty of blame (and egos) to go around.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah honestly I don't even mind those that lean to a side, that's all good, we all do.

But to honestly think one side has made ALL the mistakes is unbelievable to me.

Plenty of blame (and egos) to go around.

Yeah not really. The ####ty move scorecard isn't close. Sorry, these are not equatable.

[Freeway]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Every time the arena topic comes up I honestly find it shocking that some feel a complicated issue like this can only have one villian.

Someone should write a book about it.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

One goalie is responsible for nine goals while the other let in one. Both goalies are equal.