[Rumour] Oilers, and only the Oilers, are the finalist for Virtanen

[greentree]

Originally Posted by Makarov

He was. An acquittal just means "not guilty". It does not mean "innocent".

Wrong. Innocent until proven guilty.
https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sj...ck/art11d.html

Don't want him tho.

[Dx54]

Rather piss glass than to sign Virtanen. Hard pass

[1qqaaz]

I would rather swim in a septic tank than have someone like that associated with the team. Even beyond the allegations, I've heard a lot of personal anecdotes about his character.

As great as guys like Backlund, Coleman, Kadri, etc. are, one bad apple can ruin the whole room.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by greentree

Wrong. Innocent until proven guilty.
https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sj...ck/art11d.html

Don't want him tho.

He’s very obviously not talking about in the court of law, but in actual truth. Presumed innocent also extends as far as “probably” innocent, which is not the same as actually innocent.

Unless you believe that people who commit crimes never go free and everyone in jail deserves to be there, common sense can take over here.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Not sure about this. The Flames were connected to both DeAngelo and Kane as UFAs ...

I don’t think that was ever that serious.

If I’m not mistaken the DeAngelo rumors were refuted, and I’d be almost certain the Flames name being close to Kane was his agent trying to drive up the price of the contract from a rival team.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

If I’m not mistaken the DeAngelo rumors were refuted, and I’d be almost certain the Flames name being close to Kane was his agent trying to drive up the price of the contract from a rival team.

DeAngelo would have been a fantastic signing for one year.

[greentree]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

He’s very obviously not talking about in the court of law, but in actual truth. Presumed innocent also extends as far as “probably” innocent, which is not the same as actually innocent.

Unless you believe that people who commit crimes never go free and everyone in jail deserves to be there, common sense can take over here.

Also wrong.
The standard is quite clear. It is there to protect the innocent.
In Canada, everyone is innocent until proven guilty. The public's version of "actual truth" may be based on whatever view they might have, according to whatever personal interpretation of events they may choose to apply, on any given day, regardless of personal knowledge they may have...or lack, or ignore.
That is why the burden of proof rests with the Crown. The Crown must prove an accused's guilt. No accused person need prove their innocence, or rely merely on "common sense" to prevail, because that is a subjective standard and not always reliable.
You may not like that, but you may one day rely on the legal standard yourself, if you are ever accused of an illegal act of which you are innocent.
None of this is to say that Virtanen is exemplary.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by greentree

Also wrong.
The standard is quite clear. It is there to protect the innocent.
In Canada, everyone is innocent until proven guilty. The public's version of "actual truth" may be based on whatever view they might have, according to whatever personal interpretation of events they may choose to apply, on any given day, regardless of personal knowledge they may have...or lack, or ignore.
That is why the burden of proof rests with the Crown. The Crown must prove an accused's guilt. No accused person need prove their innocence, or rely merely on "common sense" to prevail, because that is a subjective standard and not always reliable.
You may not like that, but you may one day rely on the legal standard yourself, if you are ever accused of an illegal act of which you are innocent.
None of this is to say that Virtanen is exemplary.

It’s not that I dislike it, it’s that you’re wrong.

Really just because (again) you’re confusing the legal aspect with what people are actually talking about. Which is fine, you’re right that he’s presumed innocent until proven guilty from a legal perspective, but you’re not understanding the limitations of that.

He might have done what he was accused of, he might not have. Being found not guilty doesn’t change whatever the truth is, just as being found guilty wouldn’t have. The truth is the truth, and only Virtanen and the girl he was with know it.

I’m not saying what the truth is either way. I just think it’s wise to understand the limits of the legal system, especially in sexual assault cases.

[greentree]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It’s not that I dislike it, it’s that you’re wrong.

Really just because (again) you’re confusing the legal aspect with what people are actually talking about. Which is fine, you’re right that he’s presumed innocent until proven guilty from a legal perspective, but you’re not understanding the limitations of that.

He might have done what he was accused of, he might not have. Being found not guilty doesn’t change whatever the truth is, just as being found guilty wouldn’t have. The truth is the truth, and only Virtanen and the girl he was with know it.

I’m not saying what the truth is either way. I just think it’s wise to understand the limits of the legal system, especially in sexual assault cases.

The truth has nothing to do with "what people [ie: on forums like this, see the van discussion] are actually talking about." The courts don't always get things right. But if our society were to rely on "what people are actually talking about"--which in a legal process, outside of court, is meaningless, as people say different things, depending on their own particular POV--then nothing can stick, and conversely, no one is protected.

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

The off-ice stuff disqualifies him for me, but also — Virtanen was *awful* with the Canucks. Even purely from a hockey standpoint, I would have no interest.

He also had a lot going on away from the rink. I’d take him on a PTO.

[BlindMilwaukee]

Please just announce this Oilers signing already.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by greentree

The truth has nothing to do with "what people [ie: on forums like this, see the van discussion] are actually talking about." The courts don't always get things right. But if our society were to rely on "what people are actually talking about"--which in a legal process, outside of court, is meaningless, as people say different things, depending on their own particular POV--then nothing can stick, and conversely, no one is protected.

…right, the truth is the truth, which only Virtanen and the girl know… which is what I said.

Who is arguing that society should rely on what we’re talking about?

We’re just sharing our opinions on a message board, not personally deciding if Virtanen is signed to a PTO or faces legal consequences. Might be worth remembering where you are.

[greentree]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

…right, the truth is the truth, which only Virtanen and the girl know… which is what I said.

Who is arguing that society should rely on what we’re talking about?

We’re just sharing our opinions on a message board, not personally deciding if Virtanen is signed to a PTO or faces legal consequences. Might be worth remembering where you are.

Accused parties and alleged victims usually have different interpretations of the truth.
But I hear you. Talk is just talk. Opinions here are just opinions. Including mine.
I get jumpy when I see people stating that "not guilty" does "not mean innocent"...which you did not say; someone else did.
Saul Goodman!

[Enoch Root]

I have never understood why people are against PTOs, based on player ability. There is literally zero downside.

Not wanting Virtanen to be signed, based on his character, that is completely understandable. But even on that front, there is no downside - if he shows up with a great attitude and is looking for a chance to redeem himself, maybe he can be a positive, even if only for the one year.

With every PTO, the odds are long. But they are a free option.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by greentree

Wrong. Innocent until proven guilty.
https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sj...ck/art11d.html

Don't want him tho.

The state presumes him innocent. It doesn’t judge him to be innocent. He can’t say “the judge decided I didn’t do it”.

[JackIsBack]

People are sure judgemental on here without knowing the case inside and out or talking with Virtanen and seeing his character (I'm sure Brad will before he signs him to a contract other than a PTO - and I trust his judgement). I sure hope these judgemental people never get falsely accused or charged with anything because if you do - you'll be guilty on here no matter what happens or whatever the truth.

What about the Duke lacrosse case as just one example of athletes falsely accused of rape - and just a quick search of the internet shows that it happens all the time. I think I'll need to know more about the case before I judge Virtanen sight unseen.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by greentree

Accused parties and alleged victims usually have different interpretations of the truth.
But I hear you. Talk is just talk. Opinions here are just opinions. Including mine.
I get jumpy when I see people stating that "not guilty" does "not mean innocent"...which you did not say; someone else did.
Saul Goodman!

There is high bar for the Crown to prove guilt, and there should be. Sending potentially innocent people to prison isn't worth getting higher conviction rates for the guilty.

That high bar also makes convictions for sexual assaults even more difficult as the evidence often comes down to the verbal testimony of the accused and complainant and character assassinations. As a result, a lot guilty people are acquitted in these cases and this causes a lot of suspicion against the accused even if they are acquitted. It would really suck for an innocent person falsely accused, but I also believe false accusations are more rare than acquittals for guilty people. I can't blame people for continuing to be suspicious just due to the odds. If Virtanen is innocent, that is really unfortunate for him as he will likely carry that around forever.

[Sandman]

My daughter went to school with Virtanen. Can confirm, he's a grade-A ######.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Sandman

My daughter went to school with Virtanen. Can confirm, he's a grade-A ######.

That go with a lot of jocks

[Sandman]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

That go with a lot of jocks

Maybe, but some of the Hitmen went there too and were quite nice. His attitude was apparently above and beyond normal d-baggery.