Emergency Alert for Dangerous Persons

[Slava]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Perhaps we would do wel to focus more on rehabilitation and reintegration instead of having people serve a (likely too short) sentence and get plunked back where they were a little worse for it.

Norway’s model appears to be very successful. Though they pay more for it and some people would rather someone else get murdered than pay extra in taxes I’m sure. But people come out of prison in Norway as better people and actual contributors to the community at far higher rates than in Canada. Worth noting they don’t have life in prison nor the death sentence (obviously) and don’t seem to frame prison as punishment.

I'm in favour of things like reconciliation, rehabilitation and proactive solutions. But there's a significant issue because those steps take years to bear fruit and give results. We can't just let havoc ensue because we're playing the long game and need to take appropriate steps to deal with things in the meantime.

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I would be interested to know what you would have done, assuming your going to let the guy out of jail at some point then what exactly should have been done differently?

I think not releasing people who are deemed a high risk to reoffend is a good starting point when it comes to violent crimes. The point of incarceration (in my opinion) is not punishment, so it's not about "I paid my dues". Maybe these people did spend the requisite time behind bars, but if they're unrepentant and likely to search for victims all over again, we ought to try to prevent that.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Slava

I'm in favour of things like reconciliation, rehabilitation and proactive solutions. But there's a significant issue because those steps take years to bear fruit and give results. We can't just let havoc ensue because we're playing the long game and need to take appropriate steps to deal with things in the meantime.




I think not releasing people who are deemed a high risk to reoffend is a good starting point when it comes to violent crimes. The point of incarceration (in my opinion) is not punishment, so it's not about "I paid my dues". Maybe these people did spend the requisite time behind bars, but if they're unrepentant and likely to search for victims all over again, we ought to try to prevent that.

I'd question if two (or one however this ends up) going on a wild stabbing spree is a bit an outlier rather than an indication of a 'havoc' in society.

Should we review how we handle violent criminals - yes obviously and perhaps stricter punishments is part of it. But we've got a country just south of us that shows that throwing every 20th person in jail for a long time doesn't solve anything.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

The government, and society at large (they don’t pay taxes! they’re lazy! they just drink!) has no interest in doing that. They would much rather continue to pay for a horrendously expensive Justice/prison system. That’s how much this country hates brown people.

There’s rather more to it than that. As you point out, there are no jobs in many First Nations communities. So even when the band has money to distribute, people have few skills and nothing to do all day. Housing is in chronic shortage because of high birth rates, while the tragedy of the commons means band houses are often trashed within 20 years of being built because there’s no incentive to maintain them, and often no skills in the community to affect basic repair. Governance is too often rife with corruption and nepotism of the sort typically found in the developing world.

And while well-intentioned people in the rest of Canada wring their hands about the conditions in isolated and distressed Indigenous communities, they aren’t exactly lining up to take jobs as teachers, nurses, and social workers in those communities.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

A criminal record has no effect, he’s too poor to ever travel to the USA.

I have a question about this because I have never thought about this before but do convicted FNs lose their ability to cross the border in the same manner as nationals? I understand they have inherent rights to freely cross the border and to live or work in the US and Canada. I always assumed that for anyone with status they could move around freely despite prior convictions because of the historic agreements in place.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Slava

I'm in favour of things like reconciliation, rehabilitation and proactive solutions. But there's a significant issue because those steps take years to bear fruit and give results. We can't just let havoc ensue because we're playing the long game and need to take appropriate steps to deal with things in the meantime.

I’m not sure what you mean here, as when I’m talking about rehabilitation and reintegration I’m talking about what actually happens in prison and afterwards. You know, for example, having someone who stabs someone else go to prison and spending the required resources on education, mental health, and rehabilitative efforts to ensure they have the greatest opportunity to be a contributing member of society as possible, as opposed to primarily just letting them serve their time and booting them out. How would shifting our prison system further towards these things and away from US style punishment-focused systems be letting “havoc ensue”?

Genuine question because I don’t know if I follow.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

The biggest problem people don’t understand in Canada is that we need to elevate first nation’s peoples standard of living to something that matches the average Canadian’s, not a 3rd world country. I’ve had clients die from tuberculosis! In the 21st century!!!
Do you know any white people that have died of tuberculosis lately? I’m guessing not.

The government, and society at large (they don’t pay taxes! they’re lazy! they just drink!) has no interest in doing that. They would much rather continue to pay for a horrendously expensive Justice/prison system. That’s how much this country hates brown people.

If only the Band Councils would be open to auditors and outside consultation/ contractors on how these issues could be addressed. The corruption and nepotism within many of these councils is astounding.

As for the rest of your post, you've clearly (sadly) explained how prison is not much of a deterrent.

[Macman]

I get that there are some Indigenous bands that are doing okay but maybe we should start asking or talking about wether living on reservations is even sustainable anymore. People shouldn’t be going without food, water or still dealing with TB and other things that most don’t even think about anymore. Or having to pay outrageous prices for food.

Throwing money doesn’t seem to work. I get that Indegenous groups want self government but maybe there needs to be a better third party involved that isn’t the government to make sure people’s basic needs are met.

It seems like trying to talk about accountability and transparency at this stage is a moot point. Especially when reading a post by Johnny199r. Is there not a way to get basic services even if you’re still living on the reserve?

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

If only the Band Councils would be open to auditors and outside consultation/ contractors on how these issues could be addressed. The corruption and nepotism within many of these councils is astounding.

As for the rest of your post, you've clearly (sadly) explained how prison is not much of a deterrent.

Was at a speech given by Harper several years ago and question from the audience- what is your biggest regret as Prime Minister?

His answer was that he had a deal very close to being completed where Band councils across the country would agree to full transparency on all of their books in exchange for a large one time sum of money from the feds. Canadian government would be entitled to full audits of all spending on all reservations in Canada. He said they had agreed in principle and his government was working on details / getting to close the deal. He said that he believed by having this data and possibly making it public would enable the change on reservations across the country that was necessary as it would cause change from the inside (hence, we all know it is massively corrupt, maybe show the folks in such places just how corrupt).

Then he lost the election, and Trudeau switched course, blew up the deal. His regret was not getting the deal done in time / before the election.

But Harper is pure evil and sucks and stuff. And Trudeau is good because he cares about the environment or something or other.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

If only the Band Councils would be open to auditors and outside consultation/ contractors on how these issues could be addressed. The corruption and nepotism within many of these councils is astounding.

As for the rest of your post, you've clearly (sadly) explained how prison is not much of a deterrent.

My RCMP brother-in-law was head of a detachment in Saskatchewan, and had to get after one of the FN leaders for the above. He discovered that the leader and his family were taking trips to Vegas, and drove new expensive vehicles.

It sounds like a good suggestion to have the bands manage their own financial affairs, but without accountability, many will suffer.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

His answer was that he had a deal very close to being completed where Band councils across the country would agree to full transparency on all of their books in exchange for a large one time sum of money from the feds. Canadian government would be entitled to full audits of all spending on all reservations in Canada. He said they had agreed in principle and his government was working on details / getting to close the deal. He said that he believed by having this data and possibly making it public would enable the change on reservations across the country that was necessary as it would cause change from the inside (hence, we all know it is massively corrupt, maybe show the folks in such places just how corrupt).

This is what must happen and it's so obvious, but I don't believe it ever will. There is too much political capital to be gained in framing this idea as racist.

[Azure]

Transparency & accountability would go a long way on both sides.

Generationally it would change the mindset as well. The system is massively corrupt, and those in power that are corrupt will work day & night to keep the system the way it is.

Changing it would take generations. The only way to really initiate that change is to create transparency & once you know what is going on, introduce accountability.

Once accountability is introduced it starts changing the mindset of how First Nations leadership operates. It might take a generation or two, but eventually new leadership comes in having grown up in a system where there is more accountability, and that is how they would approach everything.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

Yeah, absolutely pointless comparison. In order to make jail a punishment, it has to be a worse place than where people come from. Our jails are full of indigenous people. In some provinces, 90%. The places that they come from are unimaginable to many Canadians.

I’ve asked so many teenage clients in jail before, how is it? “Great, they give us lots of food!”, “no one tries to crawl into bed with me like when there are adult drinking parties at my house”, “I like school here”.

The other aspect some people are are confused about is “denunciation and deterrence”. The idea that courts need to send a message to others to make them think twice before committed a crime due to the punishment. This is a stupid idea. I don’t have a single client who considers the length of a potential sentence before doing something. 98% of the time there are intoxicated due to some underlying trauma and just reacts. There are no professional bank robbers like in movies.

Finally, let’s look at how a jail sentence can have little effect on someone’s life.
Guy from a reserve gets 6 months jail. He lives in Band housing, so he won’t lose his house. The other 14 people who live there will still be living there when he’s gone. There’s no jobs on his reserve, so he didn’t lose his job. A criminal record has no effect, he’s too poor to ever travel to the USA. He sees lots of his cousins and people he knows from his Rez while in jail, so there’s no social stigma for being in, it’s absolutely normalized. A nurse and a doctor give him a checkup when he’s in there and he finally gets medication/surgery for that health problem that has hurt for 5 years. He gets to eat 3 times a day. Quality, healthy food. 3 times!!!!!! Back home 2 litres of milk cost $25. Think about that. He shares a cell with 2 other people. Wow! His crappy bungalow at home, people sleep in a day shift and a night shift on mattresses in the corners.

The biggest problem people don’t understand in Canada is that we need to elevate first nation’s peoples standard of living to something that matches the average Canadian’s, not a 3rd world country. I’ve had clients die from tuberculosis! In the 21st century!!!
Do you know any white people that have died of tuberculosis lately? I’m guessing not.

The government, and society at large (they don’t pay taxes! they’re lazy! they just drink!) has no interest in doing that. They would much rather continue to pay for a horrendously expensive Justice/prison system. That’s how much this country hates brown people.

Great post. I would comment that in the 21st century I don't think "punishment" is or should be the point of sentencing. Getting people food, medical care, emotional healing, job skills, etc is absolutely the way we need to be going to set them up for success in the future. Obviously it would be better to have those supports in the community.

Ultimately society needs to fix the underlying issues. I don't know how to do that (if it was easy it would be done already) although I think some sort of property rights for band housing would be a good place to start.

There are no jobs on reserves because there are no businesses, and I don't believe that there are no native people with entrepreneurial drive and work ethic. But aside from discrimination, there isn't much ability for them to access capital. When I started my business I used my HELOC for start up funds, which is what the vast majority of new business owners do. But that isn't possible with reserve housing, which makes capital formation much harder. And that's aside from the "tragedy of the commons" issues with cooperative housing Cliff mentioned.

That would be far from a panacea (because someone with FASD and a significant history of abuse isn't a good candidate to start a business no matter what race they are) but I think it would help.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Slava

I'm in favour of things like reconciliation, rehabilitation and proactive solutions. But there's a significant issue because those steps take years to bear fruit and give results. We can't just let havoc ensue because we're playing the long game and need to take appropriate steps to deal with things in the meantime.




I think not releasing people who are deemed a high risk to reoffend is a good starting point when it comes to violent crimes. The point of incarceration (in my opinion) is not punishment, so it's not about "I paid my dues". Maybe these people did spend the requisite time behind bars, but if they're unrepentant and likely to search for victims all over again, we ought to try to prevent that.

For how long? forever? they are always a risk, the risk doesnt ever go away, are you suggesting that anyone with a history of violence is locked up for life. because despite the fact some here dont believe it that really is a vast number, I am a bog standard foster parent, at least 20 kids from my house would fit that model, there are several thousand foster parents in BC, we all have 10 or 20 kids with a profound history of violence, most of these kids will never kill anyone, will grow up, maybe in their mid twenties or thirties, and become moderately responsible taxpayers, some wont and will spend most of their lives in or out of jail, it is all but impossible to predict who will do what because our ability to predict violence tend to be outcome based, it is easy to say most every violent criminal will have similar predictable backgrounds, the problem is the vast majority of people with those backgrounds dont become violent

[Macman]

But AFC, are you not able to help these kids as far as explaining and showing them that their behaviour is what’s detrimental and what’s holding them back? You can’t just be a wild animal in society and we all have to follow rules and norms.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Great post. I would comment that in the 21st century I don't think "punishment" is or should be the point of sentencing. Getting people food, medical care, emotional healing, job skills, etc is absolutely the way we need to be going to set them up for success in the future. Obviously it would be better to have those supports in the community.

Ultimately society needs to fix the underlying issues. I don't know how to do that (if it was easy it would be done already) although I think some sort of property rights for band housing would be a good place to start.

There are no jobs on reserves because there are no businesses, and I don't believe that there are no native people with entrepreneurial drive and work ethic. But aside from discrimination, there isn't much ability for them to access capital. When I started my business I used my HELOC for start up funds, which is what the vast majority of new business owners do. But that isn't possible with reserve housing, which makes capital formation much harder. And that's aside from the "tragedy of the commons" issues with cooperative housing Cliff mentioned.

That would be far from a panacea (because someone with FASD and a significant history of abuse isn't a good candidate to start a business no matter what race they are) but I think it would help.

You see the problem and potential solution like I did back in the 70s, when as a geologist I spent a whole winter drilling holes on the reserve areas east of Calgary. I concluded that the only solution to our FN problem was to develop ways for them to work and make their own money. By continually handing out money to them, without doing anything for it, you take away their dignity and self worth.

As it has worked out since, the greatest provider of the employment for FN people has been our oil and gas industry, and you all know how Trudeau and Butts have been treating that.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I have a question about this because I have never thought about this before but do convicted FNs lose their ability to cross the border in the same manner as nationals? I understand they have inherent rights to freely cross the border and to live or work in the US and Canada. I always assumed that for anyone with status they could move around freely despite prior convictions because of the historic agreements in place.

I think it depends on the band/nation to some degree, there are nations whos traditional lands that cross the border have an inherent right, some dont

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Macman

But AFC, are you not able to help these kids as far as explaining and showing them that their behaviour is what’s detrimental and what’s holding them back? You can’t just be a wild animal in society and we all have to follow rules and norms.

I will get 3 or 4 years at most to try and undo 14 years of abuse, there may well be physical difficulties as well, FASD or mental health issue, when they leave my house to a large degree they go back to the same ####hole they grew up in.
I have a large measure of success, the vast majority of my guys are working, some very successfully but I still have just buried a 25 year old who died of an overdose, at his funeral another one of my kids showed up in disguise as he has a Canada wide warrant out for stabbing someone in a robbery and the other lad that was living with me with those two ten years ago who was a red seal carpenter and crew foreman got back into the drugs and is currently at Saskatoon pre trial on a possession charge.

You have to realise these kids live in a whole different Canada from you or I, a third world Canada where crime and violence are normal and frankly offer them the only chance to have anything nice

[Macman]

Yeah I get it’s tough and maybe more should be done. That FASD in itself is awful, what can you even do?

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by Macman

Yeah I get it’s tough and maybe more should be done. That FASD in itself is awful, what can you even do?

There are some supports for people with FASD, but it’s very limited and tough. You can only get a FASD diagnosis for them when they are under 18 and that’s only you they can find the mother and she admitted she drank (good luck with that!)

My client went to FASD court for weapons offences and some other things. FASD court is a specially designed court where the emphasis is on the offender and his diagnosis. The judge gave him probation and put him in touch with every program imaginable to put him on the straight path.

He disappeared once he got released, didn’t check in with probation or those programs and did a home invasion with a gun with some of his gang friends. The client has no brain. He got a 6.5 year jail sentence. The judge told him “we tried to work with you to prevent this from happening, now I have no choice.” It’s sad with FASD, there’s nothing there. Ladies who drink while pregnant are condemning their kids to a miserable life in prison.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

My RCMP brother-in-law was head of a detachment in Saskatchewan, and had to get after one of the FN leaders for the above. He discovered that the leader and his family were taking trips to Vegas, and drove new expensive vehicles.

It sounds like a good suggestion to have the bands manage their own financial affairs, but without accountability, many will suffer.

I've gotten pretty close and gleaned some interesting insights into the audits of First Nations finances. There are several additional issues.

There's often not strong or robust controls in place. Even if they're in place, people skirt them. Part of it also is a distrust of the outside and not having qualified professionals to guide them inside.

An audit basically only points out that the financial information is unreliable and there's possibly risks. Accountability wise, if no one reads the report and implements change, the audit is basically useless. It sounds good on paper because of the work that must be done, but it's not exactly what some think is occurring. That being said, having an audit done is still better than not getting it done.


I was in Regina when the emergency alert went off. It was a little wild for a little bit and a personal because I had been driving the Arcola location mentioned and visiting a friend a few minutes from there only 15-20 minutes prior to the notice. It took a little convincing to the spouse and in-laws that there wasn't some dude just waiting to chase down and stab Alberta residents in the area. Then the day after, that it would be safe because the notices out and people being aware, plus there's no way there's be a stabbing incident without a good old fashioned ass kicking because of high traffic from Rider and Blue bomber fans wandering around.