Emergency Alert for Dangerous Persons

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by chedder

I guess we'll never know why. Myles Sanderson dead.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...d=sask_suspect

Well, at least they can't release him again I guess.

Like the article says, hopefully the end of the manhunt can bring some peace to the victims.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

The Nova Scotia shooter was once convicted of assault but managed to get that wiped eventually (obviously a whole other story)

The Vegas shooter had no criminal record at all.

The Greyhound murderer had no criminal record.


No doubt the justice system could be improved, but there are no easy solutions. Longer sentences for recidivists? Probably a good idea, but I'm sure there are plenty of consequences that are hard to fathom from our armchairs.

I don't think anyone is naive enough to think that we can prevent every murder. That's not the test. But from my armchair, it's disconcerting that we have these cases where violent offenders are released despite a high likelihood (as assessed by the board) of reoffending.

[blender]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Everything is ****ed. Our medical system, our politics system and definitely our justice system. What happened to mess everything up?

We live in a post-colonial, hyper-consumerist, capitalist society. There is a tremendous amount of latent trauma and a horrific past that influences all aspects of our day-to-day lives, mostly unnoticeable. We own more than ever, owe more than ever, and work more than ever. Politics is a zero-sum game played under elaborate rules of graft and nepotism. Economic inequality is at its most extreme.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Slava

I don't think anyone is naive enough to think that we can prevent every murder. That's not the test. But from my armchair, it's disconcerting that we have these cases where violent offenders are released despite a high likelihood (as assessed by the board) of reoffending.

You and I are pretty aligned on this but I did hear a comment from an expert out of Ottawa today which raised a good point. He basically said that yes questioning the parole board decision is always fair but the reality is that parole boards across Canada have been requesting increased funding and resources and support, and case loads and the justice system has experienced quite a large burden / increase in needs and so it’s been tough to keep up. Funding has either been cut or frozen and so it’s put stress on the system.

Is it anymore obvious that taxes are going up in this country one day? CliffFletcher bangs the drum a lot about Canadians and their incongruent societal demands vs. expectations of tax structures to get there but he’s 110% correct. It’s not even a real political statement at this point. Decreasing quality of education, health care, guess you can add this to the list maybe too? If people want parole boards to decline releases people need to be consistent in that they agree that taxes can increase to compensate same.

[blender]

@Mr.Coffee

I don't always agree with your takes, but I believe you are correct here.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Slava

I don't think anyone is naive enough to think that we can prevent every murder. That's not the test. But from my armchair, it's disconcerting that we have these cases where violent offenders are released despite a high likelihood (as assessed by the board) of reoffending.

Perhaps we would do wel to focus more on rehabilitation and reintegration instead of having people serve a (likely too short) sentence and get plunked back where they were a little worse for it.

Norway’s model appears to be very successful. Though they pay more for it and some people would rather someone else get murdered than pay extra in taxes I’m sure. But people come out of prison in Norway as better people and actual contributors to the community at far higher rates than in Canada. Worth noting they don’t have life in prison nor the death sentence (obviously) and don’t seem to frame prison as punishment.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Slava

I don't think anyone is naive enough to think that we can prevent every murder. That's not the test. But from my armchair, it's disconcerting that we have these cases where violent offenders are released despite a high likelihood (as assessed by the board) of reoffending.

Would you rather have had him in jail for one more year then released with no conditions and by making parole more difficult disincentivize treatment or released when he was where he breached conditions, was failed to be arrested by police, and then murdered people?

The worst general outcomes will be when people don’t get reintegrated and don’t get treatment.

So I think the set of solution needs involve longer parole periods and transitions not putting people back in jail then releasing with no conditions.

The choice the parole board is making is likelyhood to reoffend today vs 16 months from now which is better. They are in a lose lose situation. Despite this outcome the board may have made the correct decision for this type of case given the two poor options.

[Just a guy]

Originally Posted by GGG

Would you rather have had him in jail for one more year then released with no conditions and by making parole more difficult disincentivize treatment or released when he was where he breached conditions, was failed to be arrested by police, and then murdered people?

The worst general outcomes will be when people don’t get reintegrated and don’t get treatment.

So I think the set of solution needs involve longer parole periods and transitions not putting people back in jail then releasing with no conditions.

The choice the parole board is making is likelyhood to reoffend today vs 16 months from now which is better. They are in a lose lose situation. Despite this outcome the board may have made the correct decision for this type of case given the two poor options.

Agree that the ultimate problem is not the parole board. They are working within the system we have. As I said earlier there needs to be escalating consequences (the stick) and rehabilitation opportunities (the carrot).

Some offenders just don’t care because of a constant level of punishment for a given type of crime. No escalation so does not matter if it happens once or 100 times.

If we think of this issue in the same context as raising children, the we do see benefits of reward/consequence in teaching children to follow the “rules”. These are people (largely) that are very immature in personal development and self accountability.

Again my opinion

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Perhaps we would do wel to focus more on rehabilitation and reintegration instead of having people serve a (likely too short) sentence and get plunked back where they were a little worse for it.

Norway’s model appears to be very successful. Though they pay more for it and some people would rather someone else get murdered than pay extra in taxes I’m sure. But people come out of prison in Norway as better people and actual contributors to the community at far higher rates than in Canada. Worth noting they don’t have life in prison nor the death sentence (obviously) and don’t seem to frame prison as punishment.

I wonder how much this plays into the statistics in Norway:
https://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/4...d-from-norway/

Norwegian police deports 3700 criminals with foreign background last year, highest number ever. Section leader in Police Immigration Service, Magne Løvø says prevention is the main reason of the deportion, writes NRK.

– Most of the deported ones are convicted of drug offenses, theft and burglary. Once we have them in jail, we are conscious of sending them quickly out of the country so that they will not commit new offenses, says Løvø.

I don't doubt that the system is much better in Norway or many European countries when compared to North America but deporting criminals can definitely skew repeat conviction stats.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/norw...ction/2672136#

https://www.thelocal.no/20150203/nor...deport-record/

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by GGG

Would you rather have had him in jail for one more year then released with no conditions and by making parole more difficult disincentivize treatment or released when he was where he breached conditions, was failed to be arrested by police, and then murdered people?

The worst general outcomes will be when people don’t get reintegrated and don’t get treatment.

So I think the set of solution needs involve longer parole periods and transitions not putting people back in jail then releasing with no conditions.

The choice the parole board is making is likelyhood to reoffend today vs 16 months from now which is better. They are in a lose lose situation. Despite this outcome the board may have made the correct decision for this type of case given the two poor options.

Yeah, the issue is with the system not a single parole board decision. Someone with that history absolutely should have had a longer sentence initially, with a bigger chunk of it completely dedicated to detox/rehab/emotional healing, and then strictly supervised parole at the end.

That would require both changes to the law and additional funding, but (like with housing the homeless) I strongly suspect you'd make it back in savings in other places.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I wonder how much this plays into the statistics in Norway:
https://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/4...d-from-norway/



I don't doubt that the system is much better in Norway or many European countries when compared to North America but deporting criminals can definitely skew repeat conviction stats.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/norw...ction/2672136#

https://www.thelocal.no/20150203/nor...deport-record/

The Nordic Page?

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Yamer

The Norway Page?

The third link has more info and details on the same story. Maybe it is a suitable?

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

The third link has more info and details on the same story. Maybe it is a suitable?

You lead in with citing a bogus source. I'm not giving your third choice permission to my information.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I wonder how much this plays into the statistics in Norway:
https://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/4...d-from-norway/

I don't doubt that the system is much better in Norway or many European countries when compared to North America but deporting criminals can definitely skew repeat conviction stats.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/norw...ction/2672136#

https://www.thelocal.no/20150203/nor...deport-record/

Most countries will deport non-citizens after a conviction, so I wouldn’t imagine it skews it all that much with respect to any other country’s stats unless Norway is special in how many people it deports.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Yamer

You lead in with citing a bogus source. I'm not giving your third choice permission to my information.

Good for you.

[Acey]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Most countries will deport non-citizens after a conviction, so I wouldn’t imagine it skews it all that much with respect to any other country’s stats unless Norway is special in how many people it deports.

Looks like per capita they deport at least twice as many people as Canada, but that doesn't really make a difference in the context of this pointless discussion about Norway anyway.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Acey

Looks like per capita they deport at least twice as many people as Canada, but that doesn't really make a difference in the context of this pointless discussion about Norway anyway.

If our system needs to be improved it’s probably worth looking at systems that are an improvement and analysing how and why and what’s different.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Slava

Someones going to jump in and say that these guys are a dime a dozen, and that's the best we can do though. It's preposterous, of course, but you're about to hear it anyway.

I would be interested to know what you would have done, assuming your going to let the guy out of jail at some point then what exactly should have been done differently?

[afc wimbledon]

The difficulty with looking at criminal justice systems in Norway or Switzerland or the like is demographically they are very different from Canada, they are mostly by Canadian standards a white middle class suburban or rural population, they have nothing like the social problems our native community deals with, it doesnt make it pointless to see what they are doing but it is unlikely a similar system here would have identical results

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The difficulty with looking at criminal justice systems in Norway or Switzerland or the like is demographically they are very different from Canada, they are mostly by Canadian standards a white middle class suburban or rural population, they have nothing like the social problems our native community deals with, it doesnt make it pointless to see what they are doing but it is unlikely a similar system here would have identical results

Yeah, absolutely pointless comparison. In order to make jail a punishment, it has to be a worse place than where people come from. Our jails are full of indigenous people. In some provinces, 90%. The places that they come from are unimaginable to many Canadians.

I’ve asked so many teenage clients in jail before, how is it? “Great, they give us lots of food!”, “no one tries to crawl into bed with me like when there are adult drinking parties at my house”, “I like school here”.

The other aspect some people are are confused about is “denunciation and deterrence”. The idea that courts need to send a message to others to make them think twice before committed a crime due to the punishment. This is a stupid idea. I don’t have a single client who considers the length of a potential sentence before doing something. 98% of the time there are intoxicated due to some underlying trauma and just reacts. There are no professional bank robbers like in movies.

Finally, let’s look at how a jail sentence can have little effect on someone’s life.
Guy from a reserve gets 6 months jail. He lives in Band housing, so he won’t lose his house. The other 14 people who live there will still be living there when he’s gone. There’s no jobs on his reserve, so he didn’t lose his job. A criminal record has no effect, he’s too poor to ever travel to the USA. He sees lots of his cousins and people he knows from his Rez while in jail, so there’s no social stigma for being in, it’s absolutely normalized. A nurse and a doctor give him a checkup when he’s in there and he finally gets medication/surgery for that health problem that has hurt for 5 years. He gets to eat 3 times a day. Quality, healthy food. 3 times!!!!!! Back home 2 litres of milk cost $25. Think about that. He shares a cell with 2 other people. Wow! His crappy bungalow at home, people sleep in a day shift and a night shift on mattresses in the corners.

The biggest problem people don’t understand in Canada is that we need to elevate first nation’s peoples standard of living to something that matches the average Canadian’s, not a 3rd world country. I’ve had clients die from tuberculosis! In the 21st century!!!
Do you know any white people that have died of tuberculosis lately? I’m guessing not.

The government, and society at large (they don’t pay taxes! they’re lazy! they just drink!) has no interest in doing that. They would much rather continue to pay for a horrendously expensive Justice/prison system. That’s how much this country hates brown people.