[Signing] Canucks sign JT Miller to extension (7 years, $8 mil AAV)

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The $5.25M this year is also irrelevant when comparing the contracts. As is having to move out salary to make room for him.

The contracts are 7x$7 and 7x$8. Kadri is a more complete player, Miller is probably a little better offensively, and Kadri is a little older. Pretty close comparison overall, but you two are doing gymnastics to try and justify your (fairly biased) positions.

I'm fine with disregarding the bolded, but someone was arguing that Kadri actually being a UFA was a meaningful point in his favour...

I don't have a strong opinion. I think Miller's contract is pretty good. I think Kadri's is super high risk, but I'm fine with chips in now as I don't think this team will be sustainable long-term contender.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I understand the math (which is why I posted it), but Miller never produced at that pace before. He was top line C and PP1 in VAN, which is going to bump his stats.

Switch their roles, and put Kadri in his place in VAN, and make Miller the #2 C in COL - the numbers would look very different.

When talking points, opportunity matters a lot.

The real question is: should he be a #1 C? IMO, the answer is: not if you want to be a competitive team. Like Kadri, he is a great #2 C.

NYR and TBL both had stacked forward groups when Miller was there. He capitalized at his first big opportunity.

Kadri had several years with Bozak as his competition for 1C. But at the same age that Miller blossomed, Kadri had Matthews/Marner/Nylander parachute in...though he did mange b2b 32 goal seasons, followed by 2/3 mediocre seasons (1 was solid+)

[dino7c]

why are you working so hard to pump a rivals player over a Flames player on a Calgary Flames message board?

honestly

and obviously being a UFA is pretty massive

Kadri could have signed anywhere after his massive year
Miller could only sign in one place or risk having a worse season which is very probably statistically

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by dino7c

19% EV defence vs. 75% EV defence

not sure what Canuck homer voted for Miller but it was obviously a joke

Kadri will have ridiculously good defensive numbers in Calgary IMO

Miller is a good PP scorer

You keep waving that 19% as though it means something. Advanced stats are great but they can often be misinterpreted. For example Lindholm's 32% EV defense, using Jfresh's model... meanwhile, Tkachuk has a 93% EV defense.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1526576278433824769

https://twitter.com/user/status/1550686252994805761

I agree that Miller has flaws in his defensive game. Do I think anyone should've voted for him in the Selke voting? definitely not. That said, I wouldn't put Miller in the bottom of the league defensively, nor would I put Kadri at the top.

Kadri's better defensively, no one is arguing that, but we're kind of counting our chickens before they hatched. I would be as happy as anyone if he keeps up his production, and fits seamlessly into Sutter's system. However, that contract is not without a substantial element of risk.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

You keep waving that 19% as though it means something. Advanced stats are great but they can often be misinterpreted. For example Lindholm's 32% EV defense, using Jfresh's model... meanwhile, Tkachuk has a 93% EV defense.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1526576278433824769

https://twitter.com/user/status/1550686252994805761

I agree that Miller has flaws in his defensive game. Do I think anyone should've voted for him in the Selke voting? definitely not. That said, I wouldn't put Miller in the bottom of the league defensively, nor would I put Kadri at the top.

Kadri's better defensively, no one is arguing that, but we're kind of counting our chickens before they hatched. I would be as happy as anyone if he keeps up his production, and fits seamlessly into Sutter's system. However, that contract is not without a substantial element of risk.

Okay, so what's the problem?

I didn't count anything...except that I think Kadri at less money is better overall than Miller...who wasn't available to the Flames anyway because he wasn't a UFA. Jfresh himself doesn't think it was a good contract for the Canucks.

Again not sure why you guys are working so hard on this

anyway I have made my point...going to leave it now and focus on the Flames not a division rival signing a player who helped them miss the playoffs again

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Okay, so what's the problem?

I didn't count anything...except that I think Kadri at less money is better overall than Miller...who wasn't available to the Flames anyway because he wasn't a UFA. Jfresh himself doesn't think it was a good contract for the Canucks.

Again not sure why you guys are working so hard on this

anyway I have made my point...going to leave it now and focus on the Flames not a division rival signing a player who helped them miss the playoffs again

You used selke votes as a basis for your argument, then said it didnt matter when miller had more

Then you used the player cards as a basis until you saw the lindholm and tkachuk numbers

Only one working hard is your backtracking

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by d_phaneuf

You used selke votes as a basis for your argument, then said it didnt matter when miller had more

Then you used the player cards as a basis until you saw the lindholm and tkachuk numbers

Only one working hard is your backtracking

player cards still show Kadri as a better defensive player, I never changed that after that Lindholm/Tkachuk thing. I am still "using that" Anyone with an actual brain that knows the game knows Kadri is is better defensively.

Jfresh included who doesn't even like the Miller deal

as for the Selke, sure there are some really odd votes in there so I concede that is a poor argument

I must say though a Kevin Bieksa vote might carry a little more weight about defending in the NHL over a vote from Sheng Peng of the fin club

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by d_phaneuf

You used selke votes as a basis for your argument, then said it didnt matter when miller had more

Then you used the player cards as a basis until you saw the lindholm and tkachuk numbers

Only one working hard is your backtracking

Experience Dino7c posting!

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Experience Dino7c posting!

another Canuck fanboy in the thread just what we needed...at least you are honest with your affiliation

again I am sticking with my initial arguments...player card show Kadri as a much better defensive player...duh. Guy who puts together the card thinks the Canucks should have traded Miller and not signed him to this deal.

Selke votes can be dumb...Kevin Bieksa over Shen Pheng though as far defending in the NHL though IMO of course


and if we want to talk about delivering when it matters...well, that isn't even an argument. Kadri scores an OT winner in the SCF while Miller cries and sulks to the bench in a regular season OT because he got a little slash.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Who the #### is JFresh and why are his numbers the main part of your argument?

[Kasi]

I think people here just think it’s a bit more nuanced between the two contracts. Like why does everything have to be a clear win to the flames. If the Flames were as good as Dino says in his posts well we’d probably have better success than we’ve had lately. Maybe we’d have gotten past round two. Ofc this is a Flames board so you’re going to get a flames pov but I also prefer a more balanced view (like Bingo for example or GreenLantern in this thread). Both of these deals I think are solid for the teams involved. Flames need a well rounded center to pair with Huberdeau. Vancouver needs to keep their players since they would not be able to find a replacement for a player of Millers calibre.

[Burning Beard]

Flames got a gritty Stanley Cup winning centre man to push Backlund down the lineup. That's the only facts I'm concerned about. God I can't wait for the season to begin.

[V H F]

Originally Posted by transplant99

In his last 4 seasons with the Leafs he was 9th among their forwards for PP time per game.

Why you include players that only played a very small # of games? LOL



Min 25 GP per season PP TOI

2018-19 - 2:35 Kadri was tied for 2nd in PP TOI/G (only 0:01 less than 1st)
2017-18 - 2:05 He was 5th (only 0:12 less than 1st)
2016-17 - 2:11 He was 6th (only 0:16 less than 1st)
2015-16 - 2:40 He was 4th (only 0:08 behind 1st)

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Experience Dino7c posting!

I love dino's posts and don't care, but in this instance he walked himself into a corner.

I don't know who gave Miller selke votes but they clearly had these heads lodged firmly where the sun don't shine... otherwise known as Vancouver.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Kasi

I think people here just think it’s a bit more nuanced between the two contracts. Like why does everything have to be a clear win to the flames. If the Flames were as good as Dino says in his posts well we’d probably have better success than we’ve had lately. Maybe we’d have gotten past round two. Ofc this is a Flames board so you’re going to get a flames pov but I also prefer a more balanced view (like Bingo for example or GreenLantern in this thread). Both of these deals I think are solid for the teams involved. Flames need a well rounded center to pair with Huberdeau. Vancouver needs to keep their players since they would not be able to find a replacement for a player of Millers calibre.

For those that have actually read my posts I said they were both fair deals IMO. I was pushing back at the Miller contract being "way better". I'm not the one who had to compare contracts, it was brought up as a loss for the Flames somehow.

I took the L on the selke votes because I assumed Miller didn't have any because he shouldn't have. I guess if JP can get one.

I got mocked on here last summer for insisting the Flames were a divisional playoff team when the usual suspects had them bottom five. Flames are as good as I say, usually better.

Kadri has done more than Miller in his career when it counts...not even a debate to be had

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

Who the #### is JFresh and why are his numbers the main part of your argument?

I think most know who he is and his cards reflect a players value pretty well...he stuff is posted in nearly every thread. Pretty reputable analytics analysis.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by dino7c

why are you working so hard to pump a rivals player over a Flames player on a Calgary Flames message board?

honestly

and obviously being a UFA is pretty massive

Kadri could have signed anywhere after his massive year
Miller could only sign in one place or risk having a worse season which is very probably statistically

Your inferiority complex is showing.

I think at this point it's fair to say that Kadri's UFA 'Frenzy' probably didn't go as he hoped (can't think of any other premium UFAs that took 5 weeks to sign...)

It's a bad contract. But, it was still probably the right move for this team, whose eyes are wide open to the probably outcome here.

IMO Miller contract is very fair, as the team managed a slight discount by giving the player his financial security before he steps on the ice again. Good deal for both sides. That's fine, VAN isn't winning anything anytime soon.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Your inferiority complex is showing.

I think at this point it's fair to say that Kadri's UFA 'Frenzy' probably didn't go as he hoped (can't think of any other premium UFAs that took 5 weeks to sign...)

It's a bad contract. But, it was still probably the right move for this team, whose eyes are wide open to the probably outcome here.

IMO Miller contract is very fair, as the team managed a slight discount by giving the player his financial security before he steps on the ice again. Good deal for both sides. That's fine, VAN isn't winning anything anytime soon.

First of all wat? Get outta here with that dumb personal ####

Second Kadri had multiple offers...he could have signed day one if he wanted he took some time to decide. Also was waiting on the Avs who did offer him a decent contract but not the term. By all accounts he had bigger offers on the table. Did he get everything he wanted? Maybe not, that doesn't mean he wasn't a UFA with more options than a player under contract.

Your last two paragraphs is exactly what I am debating...not sure how someone can call the Kadri deal a for sure bad deal while praising the Miller deal. Who would you rather have in a playoff series? I take Kadri all day...scores, hits, threatens, will do whatever it takes Vs PP specialist. Kadri makes less and has less buyout protection to top it all off.

Kadri is not a bad Ufa contract
Miller deal is market value too

IMO as always

[midniteowl]

People can love Miller's contract, people can dislike Kadri's contract. But people shouldn't bash Kadri's contract to boast Miller's contract.


What has Miller done for the Canucks seriously. Did he help them win the division? Nope. Did he help them make the playoff? Nope. All he did was scored lots of points, so he can land himself a big contract. I'm sure he'll continue to score lots of points but will he be able to help the team make the jump to make the playoff?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Your inferiority complex is showing.

I think at this point it's fair to say that Kadri's UFA 'Frenzy' probably didn't go as he hoped (can't think of any other premium UFAs that took 5 weeks to sign...)

It's a bad contract. But, it was still probably the right move for this team, whose eyes are wide open to the probably outcome here.

IMO Miller contract is very fair, as the team managed a slight discount by giving the player his financial security before he steps on the ice again. Good deal for both sides. That's fine, VAN isn't winning anything anytime soon.

It was reported that he turned down more money elsewhere.

Also, arguing that it didn't go well for him (which is what you're doing) does not support your conclusion that it's a bad contract.

[dino7c]

If Kadri even had two offers he had more options than Miller this summer which makes my point about him being a UFA valid anyway.