Religions doing awful things

[Fuzz]

I'm a little surprised just how many people in this thread seem to be OK with the horrendous wrongs the church gets away with. "Oh well, people are happier! They live longer!" So sure, keep funding them so they can continue to brush the atrocities under the rug, and move pedophiles around to different congregations once they get caught. I really can't comprehend this mental disconnect.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

One has nothing to do with the other. Free will.

what a cop out.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

The most troubling effect about extolling an after life, IMO, is that it reduces the necessary importance of enjoying and living the only real life we can all tangibly agree exists (minus people enthralled with quantum mechanics).

This was a tool used to convince peasants that their lives of toil and servitude were worth it. The fact that it's still being employed when we live in an age of unrivaled abundance to encourage general penance and asceticism among the masses while the privileged few enjoy is disgusting.

Indeed, it is ultimately derived from a method of domination and control over servile classes. You can see parallels in the religious organization of many of major religions - take the Hindu Caste system in India for example where people with last names associated with the Priest cast are on the top of the food chain and laborers are considered untouchable on the bottom.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm a little surprised just how many people in this thread seem to be OK with the horrendous wrongs the church gets away with. "Oh well, people are happier! They live longer!" So sure, keep funding them so they can continue to brush the atrocities under the rug, and move pedophiles around to different congregations once they get caught. I really can't comprehend this mental disconnect.

No one is saying that.

I think what people are opposed to is some blanket ban of all religion. You're stating that since one religious group did a bunch of awful things, that means all religion is responsible.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm a little surprised just how many people in this thread seem to be OK with the horrendous wrongs the church gets away with. "Oh well, people are happier! They live longer!" So sure, keep funding them so they can continue to brush the atrocities under the rug, and move pedophiles around to different congregations once they get caught. I really can't comprehend this mental disconnect.

You are normally reasonable. Who in this thread said they are OK with horrendous wrongdoings of churches?

Some people are saying that religion(s) provides an overall positive effect on believers lives, and that is a true statement.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by blankall

No one is saying that.

I think what people are opposed to is some blanket ban of all religion. You're stating that since one religious group did a bunch of awful things, that means all religion is responsible.

it sure seems like it. For instance, I've never seen Cliff condemn any of their actions, and repeatedly pops in to post all the good stuff, as if it makes it OK.

I'm to stating that, becuase there are many religions that do awful things. It's probably just easier to discuss the Catholic ones, since they are so involved in the atrocities in Canada, yet enjoy more special privileges than other religions(like schools, hospitals etc). People seem to be ignoring their personal responsibility in enabling that. I find that gross and hard to understand.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

what a cop out.

So you are saying we should be blaming "God" for when a priest abuses a child, and not the priest himself? What are you getting at?

The individual is 1000% culpable and guilty. He chose to abuse of his own free will and should be punished accordingly. I am not opposed to castration/lobotomy. If his organization protects him, they are also guilty.

God has nothing to do with it, if God exists.

[blankall]

To add to this, the Catholic Church is not representative of all religious bodies in any way. They are in a unique position, where they are derived from the Roman Empire. They ran entire empires themselves and still directly (in the case of the Vatican) and indirectly run entire countries today. They then used that power to sweep away horrible acts of abuse.

Freedom of religion is an entirely different concept than what the organization of the Catholic Church is.

The issue seems to be more with addressing the power that particular institutions have than the actual religion. That kind of criminal investigation has more in common with going after organizations like the boy scouts than it does with denying freedom of religion.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm to stating that, becuase there are many religions that do awful things. It's probably just easier to discuss the Catholic ones, since they are so involved in the atrocities in Canada, yet enjoy more special privileges than other religions(like schools, hospitals etc). People seem to be ignoring their personal responsibility in enabling that. I find that gross and hard to understand.

Well those are entirely separate issues. Stating that the government shouldn't fund religious institutions or that the shouldn't have special privilege is different from stating they shouldn't exist or that their existence amounts to abuse.

[chedder]

So this eternal life in heaven thing people believe in. What do they think it entails?

Endless golf games, fishing? Just sitting around doing nothing all day? Or do they think it's like earth but with no pain, struggle, politics, war etc? A sitcom existence.

Do you travel, talk with other people or start a new hobby? Are you the age when you die forever or just pick an age you'd like to be?

In other words, how can anyone believe that this is a thing that's going to happen once they shuffle off this mortal coil?

[CroFlames]

I've heard it's a lot of golf and fishing, yes.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I've heard it's a lot of golf and fishing, yes.

So heaven for some, hell for others.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I've heard it's a lot of golf and fishing, yes.

Presumably unlimited beer, then.

[photon]

I always used to wonder what would happen if someone remarried after their spouse died. Did they suddenly become poly in the afterlife? Or did you have to pick one. Or maybe marriage is an earth-only construct and in heaven everyone can smash anyone else whenever they like.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Presumably unlimited beer, then.

[Cappy]

The community aspect of many religions is certainly commendable - on the local level. There is no point in arguing that any of the world's major religions are responsible for this on a global level at this point.

Many people derive happiness, a sense of community, etc. from their local churches etc. The problem is that this type of belonging can be done by any other type of organization - one that doesn't do all the crappy stuff religions are known for and somehow excused by their supporters.

A sense of belonging can be had with various clubs and leagues. Remember 4H? Rotary Club? Lions Clubs? these all essentially can use the same properties of a local church - belonging, friendship, connectedness, giving back to the community - without the stink of religions' past (and present) as well as having some people compromise their own moral gauge or inherent belief system.

These civic clubs and groups should promoted more than religious organizations to derive the same "good" benefits from going to church.

Sometimes i wonder who started all these Freemason conspiracy theories - clearly the church right? They usually reference satanism etc. Was the church a little scared of the rise in civic groups leaching off its precious collection plates?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by photon

I always used to wonder what would happen if someone remarried after their spouse died. Did they suddenly become poly in the afterlife? Or did you have to pick one. Or maybe marriage is an earth-only construct and in heaven everyone can smash anyone else whenever they like.

Don't start looking for logic in the afterlife, otherwise you'll start asking questions like "will Great Great Grandpa Ralph be there? He was super racist, but that wasn't really bad back then, so he probably got in, becuase he went to Church all the time. Maybe he'll be there, but the heaven racist standards have changed, so he's clean now."

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Cappy

The community aspect of many religions is certainly commendable - on the local level. There is no point in arguing that any of the world's major religions are responsible for this on a global level at this point.

Many people derive happiness, a sense of community, etc. from their local churches etc. The problem is that this type of belonging can be done by any other type of organization - one that doesn't do all the crappy stuff religions are known for and somehow excused by their supporters.

A sense of belonging can be had with various clubs and leagues. Remember 4H? Rotary Club? Lions Clubs? these all essentially can use the same properties of a local church - belonging, friendship, connectedness, giving back to the community - without the stink of religions' past (and present) as well as having some people compromise their own moral gauge or inherent belief system.

These civic clubs and groups should promoted more than religious organizations to derive the same "good" benefits from going to church.

Sometimes i wonder who started all these Freemason conspiracy theories - clearly the church right? They usually reference satanism etc. Was the church a little scared of the rise in civic groups leaching off its precious collection plates?

It's typically right wing secular groups (ex. Nazis) that go after freemasons the hardest. The reason being that they were an historically inclusive organization that took in members from various races and religions in a time where fraternizing with the other wasn't always accepted.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by photon

I always used to wonder what would happen if someone remarried after their spouse died. Did they suddenly become poly in the afterlife? Or did you have to pick one. Or maybe marriage is an earth-only construct and in heaven everyone can smash anyone else whenever they like.

I asked my Dad about this when I was young, I remember the mental gymnastics. The context was slightly different, but it was after an aunt and uncle had separated and notably could not be around each other. My question was: When kelly (their daughter) dies, will they be together with her in heaven? Even if they still don't want to be together? So they'll be together there forever? Etc.

Unless everyone lives in their own bubble universe filled in with memory generated replicas of people they knew in real life, then it's going to be patently impossible for everyone to be permanently happy in heaven.

The good place does a good job of looking into this to. good show.

[woob]

I'd be less annoyed by religion if we revoked their tax exempt status and removed all funding for any religious school boards. I realize that's a very simplistic view.