[LOL] Coyotes release their STH seating chart for their 5000 person arena

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

This is like arguing with a flat earther anti vax pandemic person.

Insult noted, as is your absence of any argument better than an insult.

You just pretend what happened didn't. The NHL had to buy the Coyotes in bankruptcy because they had no buyer who wasn't wanting to move the team.

They didn't buy the team. They took it over from the receivers and went to work to find a buyer.

The NHL did not step in to stop the sale of the Jets or Nordiques to owners who wanted to move the teams.

True, because there was no possible owner who did NOT want to move the teams. In Phoenix, they did find exactly such an owner.

The Jets and Nordiques were playing in undersized and antiquated buildings, and were guaranteed money-losers. The Coyotes had a modern arena with plenty of revenue potential; it was not Bettman's fault that Alex Meruelo eventually got himself evicted from that building, nor should he have been expected to foresee it. I grant you that Glendale was a stupid place to put a hockey team, but then so is Kanata, and nobody is saying the Senators should relocate away from Ottawa.

These are just facts that you ignore

False.

and show a massive push by the NHL to protect the Coyotes.

I told you there are 1.15 billion reasons why they did that. The NHL doesn't like moving franchises.

Here are all the franchises that have relocated since Gary Bettman became commissioner:

Minnesota North Stars, 1993 (to Dallas)
Quebec Nordiques, 1995 (to Colorado)
Winnipeg Jets, 1996 (to Phoenix)
Hartford Whalers, 1997 (to Carolina)
Atlanta Thrashers, 2011 (to Winnipeg)

All five of these franchises had been in deep financial trouble for years before they moved, and no owners could be found who were willing to keep them in place.

Three of the five were former WHA teams. The league had never granted them franchises in the first place, but only took them on as the price of the merger that ended the war between the leagues. They did not believe that Winnipeg, Quebec, or Hartford were viable locations for major-league sports franchises, and at the time, they turned out to be right.

It takes a considerable degree of paranoia to look at that list and conclude that Gary Bettman is conspiring against Canadian teams.

Further, the NHL absolutely approved Key Arena in Seattle as a landing spot for the Coyotes to put pressure on Glendale to further prop up the franchise (they couldn't sell the team unless Glendale agreed to large concessions). Just because you don't know something doesn't make it not true.

Source, please. Considering that Key Arena was not an NHL-quality rink, was not even usable for anything at the time, and had to be completely torn down (except for the roof) and redeveloped… I think a ‘citation needed’ is in order.

In any case, if that did happen, I'd say that shows the league was indeed willing to relocate the Coyotes, but it proved not to be necessary. The Jets and Nordiques were not staying put no matter what the league did or whom they threatened.

[Jordan!]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

They're not proposing to buy the site of their arena and pay the full remediation costs. That means there's public money involved.

If it were just a question of the City of Tempe approving a building permit for a purely private project, this would have gone a lot quicker and easier.

Not entirely accurate, or close to it. The Coyotes are offering to pay for the remediation.. I suspect you didn't watch their Tempe Council presentation??

They do want GPLET tax incentive and the ability to tax funds spent at the arena/district but the City of Tempe isn't paying for the arena.

There will be public money needed for infrastructure and other things but to compare The Flames project and the Tempe project are apples and oranges. Murray Edwards WAS looking for a massive handout.The Coyotes are financing the entire project outside of necessary infrastructure for the District to exist.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by Jordan!

Not entirely accurate, or close to it. The Coyotes are offering to pay for the remediation.. I suspect you didn't watch their Tempe Council presentation??

They do want GPLET tax incentive and the ability to tax funds spent at the arena/district but the City of Tempe isn't paying for the arena.

There will be public money needed for infrastructure and other things but to compare The Flames project and the Tempe project are apples and oranges. Murray Edwards WAS looking for a massive handout.The Coyotes are financing the entire project outside of necessary infrastructure for the District to exist.

A massive government handout. The Flames, or any team in Canada, aren't allowed to do this. Please explain how a private firm can create their own tax grab and it not be considered a tax handout?

I agree it is a good plan but don't conflate the two tax systems.

[The Fonz]

I'm actually really wanting to get down there for a game this winter. I think it'd be a really cool experience watching an NHL game in an arena like that.

The atmosphere will be far better than having 5,000 people in an 18,000 seat arena.

[Joborule]

Also to be fair, playing in an arena well below the average for a temporary time is not unique for the NHL. Even the NFL did it a few years ago with the Los Angeles Chargers when they moved from San Diego. They were in a stadium that had a capacity of 27,000. That's CFL level.

Although the team should still be in San Diego. I'll never get use to them being in LA.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Insult noted, as is your absence of any argument better than an insult.



They didn't buy the team. They took it over from the receivers and went to work to find a buyer.



True, because there was no possible owner who did NOT want to move the teams. In Phoenix, they did find exactly such an owner.

The Jets and Nordiques were playing in undersized and antiquated buildings, and were guaranteed money-losers. The Coyotes had a modern arena with plenty of revenue potential; it was not Bettman's fault that Alex Meruelo eventually got himself evicted from that building, nor should he have been expected to foresee it. I grant you that Glendale was a stupid place to put a hockey team, but then so is Kanata, and nobody is saying the Senators should relocate away from Ottawa.



False.



I told you there are 1.15 billion reasons why they did that. The NHL doesn't like moving franchises.

Here are all the franchises that have relocated since Gary Bettman became commissioner:

Minnesota North Stars, 1993 (to Dallas)
Quebec Nordiques, 1995 (to Colorado)
Winnipeg Jets, 1996 (to Phoenix)
Hartford Whalers, 1997 (to Carolina)
Atlanta Thrashers, 2011 (to Winnipeg)

All five of these franchises had been in deep financial trouble for years before they moved, and no owners could be found who were willing to keep them in place.

Three of the five were former WHA teams. The league had never granted them franchises in the first place, but only took them on as the price of the merger that ended the war between the leagues. They did not believe that Winnipeg, Quebec, or Hartford were viable locations for major-league sports franchises, and at the time, they turned out to be right.

It takes a considerable degree of paranoia to look at that list and conclude that Gary Bettman is conspiring against Canadian teams.



Source, please. Considering that Key Arena was not an NHL-quality rink, was not even usable for anything at the time, and had to be completely torn down (except for the roof) and redeveloped… I think a ‘citation needed’ is in order.

In any case, if that did happen, I'd say that shows the league was indeed willing to relocate the Coyotes, but it proved not to be necessary. The Jets and Nordiques were not staying put no matter what the league did or whom they threatened.

The reason I compared this to arguing with a flat earther is the NHL themselves say they bought the team out of bankruptcy and you continue to deny it.

This is from an article on NHL.com:

"The NHL has owned the Coyotes since buying the franchise out of bankruptcy in 2009"

Is this clear enough for you? If it is I'm curious how you see this as not an extraordinary move in keeping the Coyotes in Phoenix?

Then explain why fans of other teams that moved or came very close to moving should not see this as the Coyotes getting special attention from the league.

Fyi. Quotes from Daly are easily searchable on Google which mention Key Arena being suitable for the Coyotes.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Insult noted, as is your absence of any argument better than an insult.



They didn't buy the team. They took it over from the receivers and went to work to find a buyer.



True, because there was no possible owner who did NOT want to move the teams. In Phoenix, they did find exactly such an owner.

The Jets and Nordiques were playing in undersized and antiquated buildings, and were guaranteed money-losers. The Coyotes had a modern arena with plenty of revenue potential; it was not Bettman's fault that Alex Meruelo eventually got himself evicted from that building, nor should he have been expected to foresee it. I grant you that Glendale was a stupid place to put a hockey team, but then so is Kanata, and nobody is saying the Senators should relocate away from Ottawa.



False.



I told you there are 1.15 billion reasons why they did that. The NHL doesn't like moving franchises.

Here are all the franchises that have relocated since Gary Bettman became commissioner:

Minnesota North Stars, 1993 (to Dallas)
Quebec Nordiques, 1995 (to Colorado)
Winnipeg Jets, 1996 (to Phoenix)
Hartford Whalers, 1997 (to Carolina)
Atlanta Thrashers, 2011 (to Winnipeg)

All five of these franchises had been in deep financial trouble for years before they moved, and no owners could be found who were willing to keep them in place.

Three of the five were former WHA teams. The league had never granted them franchises in the first place, but only took them on as the price of the merger that ended the war between the leagues. They did not believe that Winnipeg, Quebec, or Hartford were viable locations for major-league sports franchises, and at the time, they turned out to be right.

It takes a considerable degree of paranoia to look at that list and conclude that Gary Bettman is conspiring against Canadian teams.



Source, please. Considering that Key Arena was not an NHL-quality rink, was not even usable for anything at the time, and had to be completely torn down (except for the roof) and redeveloped… I think a ‘citation needed’ is in order.

In any case, if that did happen, I'd say that shows the league was indeed willing to relocate the Coyotes, but it proved not to be necessary. The Jets and Nordiques were not staying put no matter what the league did or whom they threatened.

One more thing. You suggest the Nordiques and Jets were guaranteed money losers (which I would love to see a citation for) because of old and undersized arenas. Yet 5k at ASU is just fine for 3-5 years for the Coyotes? That team could be in an NHL spec arena in QC tomorrow and would sell out this season. Or in a near NHL spec arena in southern Ontario and selling out forever.

Serious mental gymnastics on your part to say the Coyotes aren't getting an entirely different level of support than was afforded to the OG Jets, Nordiques and to the Flames and Oilers...moreso the Oilers who were hours from moving.

[Regulator75]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

I'm actually really wanting to get down there for a game this winter. I think it'd be a really cool experience watching an NHL game in an arena like that.

The atmosphere will be far better than having 5,000 people in an 18,000 seat arena.

Imagine having 500 people in a 5000 seat arena!

[Gemnoble]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1562835185879883784

Oh my God. This is exceptional.

[The Fonz]

The joke doesn't hit the same way though when you consider the Atlanta Gladiators will only get about 2,000 attendance inside that 13,000 seat arena.

[Gemnoble]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

The joke doesn't hit the same way though when you consider the Atlanta Gladiators will only get about 2,000 attendance inside that 13,000 seat arena.

It still stands that the ECHL team has a higher capacity arena then their NHL affiliate.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Gemnoble

It still stands that the ECHL team has a higher capacity arena then their NHL affiliate.

Just wait until pictures come out and their dressing room is better than the Flames' dressing room.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Coyotes season ticket revenue up 50% and they expect to sell out every game this season:

https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/...glendale-arena

[Enoch Root]

that's good to see

[dustygoon]

Pretty tough to have an opinion until you see a steady stream of games with the building full.

[TheScorpion]

I know people down there who have talked about the relative scarcity of season tickets being a factor when they've signed up/renewed for the coming year.

I'm honestly a little surprised that people are paying those high prices, but that's what the Coyotes needed to make a go of this. That, and Tempe City Council to approve their project this fall.

[Jordan!]

Imagine putting the product where hockey fans exist and who have money.

What a surprise

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I know people down there who have talked about the relative scarcity of season tickets being a factor when they've signed up/renewed for the coming year.

I'm honestly a little surprised that people are paying those high prices, but that's what the Coyotes needed to make a go of this. That, and Tempe City Council to approve their project this fall.

The increase of 50% is good, but was it a low number to start with? A 50% increase from a poor number isn't an amazing feat. But... it would actually be amazing if something like this could become sustainable. Imagine if teams could make just as much money in a 5,000 seat arena and didn't need to spend $750 million on a new 18,000 arena? Spend less than half the amount on a kick-ass small arena.

It might not be within the next decade, but I suspect arena sports are going to have to change their gate driven business model at some point in the not too distant future. The demographics of people attending are getting older, young people seem to prefer entertainment that comes to them, and a possible post-pandemic cultural shift are all contributing factors.

[TheScorpion]

It definitely isn't going to be sustainable. The Coyotes have not been profitable recently (although they're not alone in that regard), and I don't think a 50% increase in STH revenue is going to fully offset that. But ... I think it's perfectly fine for three years if they can get their privately-funded arena approved.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The increase of 50% is good, but was it a low number to start with? A 50% increase from a poor number isn't an amazing feat. But... it would actually be amazing if something like this could become sustainable. Imagine if teams could make just as much money in a 5,000 seat arena and didn't need to spend $750 million on a new 18,000 arena? Spend less than half the amount on a kick-ass small arena.

It might not be within the next decade, but I suspect arena sports are going to have to change their gate driven business model at some point in the not too distant future. The demographics of people attending are getting older, young people seem to prefer entertainment that comes to them, and a possible post-pandemic cultural shift are all contributing factors.

Part of it is that there are no cheap seats now.

The Flames' average ticket price is around $100 or so, but if you took the upper deck and the 2nd deck away and just had the lower bowl, the average ticket price would be north of $250, plus they could raise them even more, due to scarcity