[LOL] Coyotes release their STH seating chart for their 5000 person arena

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by jayswin

I'm far too drunk for all of your rebuttals, so I concede.

You just about missed out on your natural clowntrick post if it was not Strange-ley broken up.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Boreal

You just about missed out on your natural clowntrick post if it was not Strange-ley broken up.

By two other posts?

[timun]

Originally Posted by jayswin

No, not comparable. You can't go back the 80's. I mean many teams in the league were playing in 11-13k arenas back then. So the direct comparison would be a team playing in a 14-15k arena while everyone else plays in 18-21k.

The Islanders just finished playing in an 11k (actual viable seats) at Barclay and the revamped Nassau Coliseum (13k). Winnipeg plays in a 15k arena permanently.

Maple Leaf gardens was 12k capacity for perspective.

Ha, some interesting facts and math going on here. I'll deconstruct your argument, even though it's entirely irrelevant to the comparison that was being made, and then I'll wrap back around to the overarching point you glossed over.

First of all nobody in the '80s was playing in "11-13k arenas". In 1980 the smallest capacity arena in the league (other than the Corral) was the Colisée de Québec, which was undergoing renovations. Official capacity that '80-'81 season was 10,012 but for '81-'82 it was expanded to 15,250. Next smallest was the Met Center in the Twin Cities, which was ~14,400. Biggest was Joe Louis Arena in Detroit, at 19,275. Median was Maple Leaf Gardens @ 16,316 seats, and mean (ignoring the Colisée and Corral) was 16,097 (16,359 including the expanded Colisée).

As such your "direct comparison" to today of "a team playing in a 14-15k arena while everyone else plays in 18-21k" is way off-base. The Corral was about 6,500 seats in a league where the average was over 16,000. Not "everyone plays in 18-21k" arenas today either; only about half of teams do. In point of fact the average capacity in the NHL today (ignoring Arizona) is 18,276, and mean is the 18,437-seat Rogers Place in Edmonton. And capacity continues to trend downward, as the average capacities of new arenas opened in the last 20 years (NYI, DET, EDM, VGK, PIT, NJD & WPG) is 17,510. (Little Caesars Arena is far and away the largest of these seven @ 19,515, and Rogers Place and PPG Paints Arena are the only other ones >17,368.)

Restated the way you'd phrased it in the first place, the Flames were "a team playing in a 6.5k arena while everyone else plays in 16-19k".


The overarching point was that the Corral was temporary, was always intended to be temporary, and whether the plan for the Coyotes to play at ASU is 5,000 seats or the 7,350-seat 'league-average-capacity-adjusted' analogue to the Corral, the precise numbers are irrelevant. You wrote:

Originally Posted by jayswin

It was an Arizona special in terms of helping them out that's for sure. Imagine if the Flames said they'd play in the Centrium in Red Deer (7k seats) for 3-5 years while an arena deal is finalized and then built?

You think the league steps in and okays that?

And the answer to that question is a categorical "yes": the League okayed such a scenario in Calgary 40 years ago. The Flames played an entire season in a rinky-dink temporary venue before construction of the Saddledome was approved, and another two seasons before it was built and finished.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by timun

And the answer to that question is a categorical "yes": the League okayed such a scenario in Calgary 40 years ago. The Flames played an entire season in a rinky-dink temporary venue before construction of the Saddledome was approved, and another two seasons before it was built and finished.

Not only that, the league authorized a franchise to relocate to Calgary under those conditions. In this case, they're doing it to prevent a franchise from relocating.

[Playfair]

Virtual Seat Map Of Tiny Arena Where Coyotes Will Play Shows It Could Have Serious Potential
https://brobible.com/sports/article/...EqduGW_2DHTsvM

[Jordan!]

New arena news per Tempe City Council:

-Tempe Staff will report to Council August 18th
-Council would like to have a decision by Halloween and an agreement before the Holidays w/ the Coyotes
-Land remediation to begin early 2023

Source: Me

[getbak]

Just when you thought it couldn't get any better...

https://twitter.com/user/status/1562200232326074370

https://twitter.com/user/status/1562204518770544640

[DeluxeMoustache]

Came for Mullett reference. Found business taken care of up front. Leaving satisfied

[Johnny Makarov]

$82million salary cap and you have a team playing in a 5,000 seat arena. lol

Just fold them.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

$82million salary cap and you have a team playing in a 5,000 seat arena. lol

Just fold them.

Then who will pay Meruelo the $650 million to buy his franchise back from him? That's the going price, as established by the Kraken.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

$82million salary cap and you have a team playing in a 5,000 seat arena. lol

Just fold them.

For the record, I think it's ridiculous, but the math isn't wildly out of whack. 41 games x 5000 = 205,0000 seats. To make $82,500,000, the average ticket price needs to be $402.44. Obviously over simplistic, but if it was any team other than the Coyotes, one could probably get away with that kind of ticket price for that kind of intimate experience.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

For the record, I think it's ridiculous, but the math isn't wildly out of whack. 41 games x 5000 = 205,0000 seats. To make $82,500,000, the average ticket price needs to be $402.44. Obviously over simplistic, but if it was any team other than the Coyotes, one could probably get away with that kind of ticket price for that kind of intimate experience.

+General staff Fees
+Rental Fees
+Travel expenses (unless included in cap calculation already, like players benefits are)
+Other Expenses
+?

-Don't the players pay back a % of their income (or income is withheld so the true player expenses is less - held in escrow)?
-TV contract
-NHL Revenue sharing
-Merchandise and other sales
-?



I don't know why I am posting this other then to highlight your overly simplistic comment- I assume those other income buckets are not just a rounding error but matter. What would the expenses go for $6-9M? How much are the coaches paid? I imagine they are the biggest % of other expenses along with travel

[SutterBrother]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

For the record, I think it's ridiculous, but the math isn't wildly out of whack. 41 games x 5000 = 205,0000 seats. To make $82,500,000, the average ticket price needs to be $402.44. Obviously over simplistic, but if it was any team other than the Coyotes, one could probably get away with that kind of ticket price for that kind of intimate experience.

Saving millions on AC with a smaller space though.

[Icantwhisper]

I have a feeling going to an NHL game in a 5000 person arena would be awesome, as long a there are at least 4000 people there

[Mull]

Originally Posted by SutterBrother

Saving millions on AC with a smaller space though.

This is absolutely hilarious that an the building operating expenses of an NHL team are likely meaningful enough that the franchise could feasibly do BETTER in a 5,000 person arena.



I mean that is likely a stretch, but god it makes me laugh when people talk about the Flames relocating.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Then who will pay Meruelo the $650 million to buy his franchise back from him? That's the going price, as established by the Kraken.

No, it absolutely isn't.

$650M was the [reported*] price to cut the pie into 32 pieces instead of 31.

Meruelo could probably get 3-400M - another $200(ish)M would go to the league as a relocation fee.


*Everyone has a vested interest in presenting high franchise values...I'm sure there is a way to arrive at the $650M number, but I'm skeptical that it is all direct flow of cash from the new owners to the league...

It could be as simple as including unrealized things like revenue sharing/league partnerships that the Kraken do not receive a cut of for the first few years; or I wouldn't be surprised if a new franchise has to prove their financial strength by fronting their first 10 years of revenue sharing contributions - essentially future operational costs that they can roll into the purchase price.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

For the record, I think it's ridiculous, but the math isn't wildly out of whack. 41 games x 5000 = 205,0000 seats. To make $82,500,000, the average ticket price needs to be $402.44. Obviously over simplistic, but if it was any team other than the Coyotes, one could probably get away with that kind of ticket price for that kind of intimate experience.

Also, their payroll is not $82.5 million.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Originally Posted by Mull

+General staff Fees
+Rental Fees
+Travel expenses (unless included in cap calculation already, like players benefits are)
+Other Expenses
+?

-Don't the players pay back a % of their income (or income is withheld so the true player expenses is less - held in escrow)?
-TV contract
-NHL Revenue sharing
-Merchandise and other sales
-?



I don't know why I am posting this other then to highlight your overly simplistic comment- I assume those other income buckets are not just a rounding error but matter. What would the expenses go for $6-9M? How much are the coaches paid? I imagine they are the biggest % of other expenses along with travel

Yup. I didn't do a deep dive. Clearly. Nor, will I. I'm just saying it's hypothetically feasible to make money in a tiny arena.

Imagine the opposite of a stadium experience. Set up a 5000 person arena for a Maple Leafs vs Canadiens game. Or a BoA? How much could you sell those tickets for? The Corral was just over 7000 people. I'm old enough, but unfortunately never got to attend a game there. Must have been glorious. If I get the opportunity to attend a Coyotes game in that venue, I might take it. It's a novelty that will wear off, but will be interesting for a short time.

[FlamesAddiction]

It would be great if this sort of thing became a model that could work. It would be a lot easier for cities to build new arenas if they only had to be 25-30% of the size they currently are.

It does seem like gate driven model of packing 18,000 people into an arena might not be the future for pro-sports in general.

[GreenLantern2814]

I can’t wait for these games to be attended by 1000 people a night.

#### the Arizona Coyotes.