Public education advocates call on Alberta to axe funds to private schools

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by you&me

My understanding is that each student in public education in Alberta receives roughly $8k per year (varies slightly between grades), whereas each student attending private schools (not sure about charters) receives about 60% of the equivalent amount for their grade, or roughly $4,800 per year.

So what you’re saying is essentially that at any private or charter school where the tuition fees exceeds $3200 the students receive more funding(albeit from different sources) towards their education?

The balance of the cost of providing a private school education is made up from tuition, but that tuition also goes to things like teacher salaries, equipment (gym stuff, computers), capital expenses and future capital expenditures.

I’m reasonably certain that those items in the public system are paid for by the funding provided by taxpayers. Is your definition of equality that students should receive equal funding even if that could be to the detriment of the system used by students whose parents can’t afford to put them in a private or charter system that could be funded on its own?

[Fuzz]

Another way to look at it, pretend private schools don't exist, and the extra money wealthy families pay for their child to go to private school is instead collected via increased taxes on the wealthy who can clearly afford to pay it(since they are doing so). So now you have extra money for the public system, and everyone gets a better education, as opposed to only the wealthy. That's equality. Reverse all that, and that's what we have now.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

So what you’re saying is essentially that at any private or charter school where the tuition fees exceeds $3200 the students receive more funding(albeit from different sources) towards their education?

I'm saying that those students are receiving $3200 LESS than their peers at public school and their parents have decided to pay for that shortfall (and then some) out of pocket.

I’m reasonably certain that those items in the public system are paid for by the funding provided by taxpayers. Is your definition of equality that students should receive equal funding even if that could be to the detriment of the system used by students whose parents can’t afford to put them in a private or charter system that could be funded on its own?

I could be wrong, but my understanding is things like capital expenditures (new schools, maintenance, etc) are a different budgetary item to the province than the ~$8k per student...

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by GGG

Are they open to kids with learning or behavioural codes?

As far as I know they would be, but I haven't personally verified (it's been many years since we enrolled our first kid into kindergarten). There was a short interview but I never got the feeling it was used to weed kids out of the program.

For what it's worth, I came across this: http://www.taapcs.ca/contact-us/

Who can attend a Charter School?

Charter schools cannot discriminate in their admission policies and as such are bound by the provincial regulations, as are all public schools. Most charter schools in Alberta have a waitlist program that they address on an individual basis.

Having said that, if there isn't a good "fit" I could see a school suggesting or even pressuring a parent that maybe a different program would be more appropriate. I don't think that's what you were asking about though.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Another way to look at it, pretend private schools don't exist, and the extra money wealthy families pay for their child to go to private school is instead collected via increased taxes on the wealthy who can clearly afford to pay it(since they are doing so). So now you have extra money for the public system, and everyone gets a better education, as opposed to only the wealthy. That's equality. Reverse all that, and that's what we have now.

Having one small subset of the population pay more (than they already do), so a larger part of the population gets more is wealth redistribution, not equality.

If that's how you see the world and what you'd like to see happen, fine, but just be honest about what it is and don't try and use terminology that doesn't correctly describe your goal.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by you&me

Having one small subset of the population pay more (than they already do), so a larger part of the population gets more is wealth redistribution, not equality.

If that's how you see the world and what you'd like to see happen, fine, but just be honest about what it is and don't try and use terminology that doesn't correctly describe your goal.

That's what tax brackets do, though. Are you against tax brackets? I'm not trying to hide anything.

[malcolmk14]

Who can attend a Charter School?

Charter schools cannot discriminate in their admission policies and as such are bound by the provincial regulations, as are all public schools. Most charter schools in Alberta have a waitlist program that they address on an individual basis.

I mean, I know this for a fact to not be true. I’ve had a number of students who have been removed from or denied access to charter schools for one reason or another. “Not a fit for the program” is code for “we don’t want this kid in our school”.

[guzzy]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

My only problem with private schools are when they are religious, I don't think my tax dollars should be used to indoctrinate kids with superstitious nonsense.
Other than that I have no issues with them.

You mean like the Catholic school board? That educates a large portion of Alberta's children.

[Fuzz]

Essentially a private school gives an advantage to children who's parents can afford it, an advantage that can carry on throguh life. I understand why parents would desire this, but for society in general, it's not good policy.

The fact these schools also exclude students with special needs then creates adults who haven't interacted with or experienced those who are disadvantaged in life, whether throguh lack of wealth or losing a health lottery. I don't have any studies on this, but I woudl have to imagine that plays a roll in lack of empathy later in life. Also bad for society. Particularity with the advantages they have from private schools that lead to positions of power over the less fortunate.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That's what tax brackets do, though. Are you against tax brackets? I'm not trying to hide anything.

I consider different tax brackets a form of wealth redistribution too, and I'm sure we disagree about that - again, perfectly fine - but this isn't the thread for that.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by you&me

Having one small subset of the population pay more (than they already do), so a larger part of the population gets more is wealth redistribution, not equality.

If that's how you see the world and what you'd like to see happen, fine, but just be honest about what it is and don't try and use terminology that doesn't correctly describe your goal.

The goal of publicly funded education is to ensure that every student that otherwise wouldn’t receive an education receives one, not to ensure that children’s parents who can afford to pay for one(and then some) receive a discount.

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The fact these schools also exclude students with special needs then creates adults who haven't interacted with or experienced those who are disadvantaged in life, whether throguh lack of wealth or losing a health lottery. I don't have any studies on this, but I woudl have to imagine that plays a roll in lack of empathy later in life. Also bad for society. Particularity with the advantages they have from private schools that lead to positions of power over the less fortunate.

Respectfully, this is not data. This is speculation and stereotyping.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by you&me

I consider different tax brackets a form of wealth redistribution too, and I'm sure we disagree about that - again, perfectly fine - but this isn't the thread for that.

OK, as long as you understand the ramifications of continued concentration of wealth and education over generations, and where that leads.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

Respectfully, this is not data. This is speculation and stereotyping.

Sure, it's speculation, but do you not think that if children aren't exposed to someone who has, say, learning impediments, they'll be less able to understand that later in life? I think back to all the special needs people in my school, and try to imagine them not being around.

[malcolmk14]

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

But the earlier discussion was about how the kids that go into private don't receive as much funding allocated to them as kids that go into public. I think the quoted number was 60%? If that's true, then the public system does get a funding boost by virtue of a proportion of the kids going into the private stream.

In a city with 100 children with 90 public/10 private and $100,000 of funding:

• Equal funding = $1,000 per child. This is true equity with no private option and every child receiving the same funding.
• 60% of funding for private versus 100% of funding for public results in the 90 public children receiving $1,044.44 per child, and the 10 private children receiving $600 per child.

In this case, the public kids will get an extra $44.44 of funding they wouldn't otherwise receive. So doesn't everyone benefit, since the private kids get to go to their preferential school, while the kids in public receive extra resources allocated to them?

Yes, and the kids attending public would benefit even more if private schools were not given any public funding. That’s my point. Each kid in the public system would then get $1111 and the 10 private school parents would pay $1000 more.

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Sure, it's speculation, but do you not think that if children aren't exposed to someone who has, say, learning impediments, they'll be less able to understand that later in life? I think back to all the special needs people in my school, and try to imagine them not being around.

Not really. I went through public school and can't think of a single kid that I went through school with that had some sort of serious disability. That doesn't mean I am incapable of empathizing with them, nor do I think any less of people like that.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

Not really. I went through public school and can't think of a single kid that I went through that had some sort of serious disability. That doesn't mean I am incapable of empathizing with them, nor do I think any less of people like that. None of the private schools I'm aware of are gated compounds where the people only interact with other trust fund babies.

I mean, I can totally imagine that private schools might attract that type over the public system, but is that the norm?

Really? Weird. I came from a small town and can think of at least 10. There were always one or 2 in a class of mine. At least 2 have died due to their disabilities since then, so they weren't minor.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

But the earlier discussion was about how the kids that go into private don't receive as much funding allocated to them as kids that go into public. I think the quoted number was 60%? If that's true, then the public system does get a funding boost by virtue of a proportion of the kids going into the private stream.

In a city with 100 children with 90 public/10 private and $100,000 of funding:

• Equal funding = $1,000 per child. This is true equity with no private option and every child receiving the same funding.
• 60% of funding for private versus 100% of funding for public results in the 90 public children receiving $1,044.44 per child, and the 10 private children receiving $600 per child.

In this case, the public kids will get an extra $44.44 of funding they wouldn't otherwise receive. So doesn't everyone benefit, since the private kids get to go to their preferential school, while the kids in public receive extra resources allocated to them?

Children of parents with high educational background out perform kids of parents with low educational background in schools. Private schools in general are targeting kids that would perform well on other environments (I realize that their are exceptions to this). So the kids these schools are getting are lower cost higher performing students so the “benefit” you are stating might not exist. Also by removing above average students (on a statistical basis) you hurt the student body as a whole.

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Really? Weird. I came from a small town and can think of at least 10. There were always one or 2 in a class of mine. At least 2 have died due to their disabilities since then, so they weren't minor.

The point remains the same though -- even a prospective lack of exposure doesn't necessarily result in or may not even increase the likelihood that one might lose the ability to empathize with those less fortunate or able-bodied.

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by GGG

So the kids these schools are getting are lower cost higher performing students so the “benefit” you are stating might not exist. Also by removing above average students (on a statistical basis) you hurt the student body as a whole.

But are all above average students being taken away and put into the private system? What about special needs kids that get taken out of the public stream and put into specialized schools? They exist, too. So while I could buy the argument that some lower cost/higher performing kids will enter the private stream, so will some higher cost/lower performing kids.

In 2021/2022, the total school population in Alberta was 744,809. Of those students, 39,194 were in private schooling (not including Charter, or other specialized schools for simplicity). So you've removed 5.26% of the student population and put them into private schools. Now, I have no clue what proportion of private schooling is for special needs kids versus religious versus other, but that's 5.26% of the overall student population. I'm no expert, but that doesn't seem like a massive exodus of the best and brightest the province has to offer.