Brad Treliving needs to go

[Mull]

Originally Posted by Locke

I have been firmly on the 'Fire Brad Treliving' bandwagon for quite some time.

I've made my points and position clear, I dont think he's bad at what he does, quite the contrary, I think he's done an excellent job, but at some point one has to acknowledge that he's not going to be the guy that takes what he's built over-the-top to something bigger.

As for something "bigger" - aren't we one top 6 forward away from being cup contenders- if we aren't long shot already? Getting a top 6 isn't easy, but in sports this is as good as sometimes you can get.


What I don't get is who is going to replace him? BT was "untested" of sorts and learned on the job, there isn't exactly a quantity of GM's out there I would trust over him.

Now I like him and think he is the best GM in the league, so let that bias be known, but assuming you could have anyone who isn't under contract or you could reasonably steal- who do you replace him with?

[OminousFlames]

It's easy to point fingers, especially with hindsight on their side. People love to be over dramatic and say "fire this coach" or "fire this GM". I am curious to know in a hypothetical. If Treliving is gone tomorrow.. who would you want as a GM to take us to a cup final? This is more of a question to those who are quick to want GMs fired.

Without a fluke run in 04, this franchise hasn't made the finals since 89. We been through many GMs and coaches since then.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by OminousFlames

I am curious to know in a hypothetical. If Treliving is gone tomorrow.. who would you want as a GM to take us to a cup final?

This is an extremely good point

[Groot]

*Adjusts monocle*

Some of the posts in this thread are utterly preposterous. Now if you'll excuse me, my butler has my caviar and champagne ready on the sun deck.

Sent from my Falcon Supernova iPhone 6 Pink Diamond via Tapatalk.

[BlindMilwaukee]

Originally Posted by Mull

Now I like him and think he is the best GM in the league, so let that bias be known, but assuming you could have anyone who isn't under contract or you could reasonably steal- who do you replace him with?

That’s always been my point of view as well. Of the people who want to see Brad gone - who do you replace him with?

You’re starting over with how the new GM wants to draft and how they view inherited prospects.

If it’s Stanley Cup or bust I’d assume bringing in a new GM wouldn’t alter playoff results for a few seasons.

Of course it’s also up to the players to show up when it matters most. That isn’t on the GM.

And if you believe the GM should only be acquiring guys who can get it done in the playoffs there are other GMs in the league also trying to get those guys.

The NHL is the highest level of hockey that there is. I feel like some people think our teams GM should always have the results of a guy playing NHL on PlayStation on easy mode.

So the NHL also attracts the best GMs. Exception for Edmonton of course.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Groot

*Adjusts monocle*

Some of the posts in this thread are utterly preposterous. Now if you'll excuse me, my butler has my caviar and champagne ready on the sun deck.

Sent from my Falcon Supernova iPhone 6 Pink Diamond via Tapatalk.

Pfft. iPhone 6.

My bootshine boy wouldnt be caught dead using such plebian trash!

Now if you'll excuse me, my personal chef has made 'Faberge Omelettes' for breakfast.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Locke

I think he's done an excellent job, but at some point one has to acknowledge that he's not going to be the guy that takes what he's built over-the-top to something bigger.

I don't understand this. Why does one have to acknowledge that Treliving is "not going to be the guy that takes what he's built over-the-top to something bigger"? There doesn't seem to be any good reason to think this—especially since you also agree that he has done an excellent job—apart from the length of his tenure. And to that end, replacing a GM for no other reason than that he has been in the same job for a long time sure looks like making a change for the sake of change, which I don't think is ever a good idea.

From my perspective Treliving looks like he is hitting his stride after years of learning on the job. He is a much better GM now than when he was hired, and I think one of the best in the League at this point. It doesn't make much sense to move on under these circumstances.


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[Locke]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I don't understand this. Why does one have to acknowledge that Treliving is "not going to be the guy that takes what he's built over-the-top to something bigger"? There doesn't seem to be any good reason to think this—especially since you also agree that he has done an excellent job—apart from the length of his tenure. And to that end, replacing a GM for no other reason than that he has been in the same job for a long time sure looks like making a change for the sake of change, which I don't think is ever a good idea.

From my perspective Treliving looks like he is hitting his stride after years of learning on the job. He is a much better GM now than when he was hired, and I think one of the best in the League at this point. It doesn't make much sense to move on under these circumstances.


Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

But under what metric?

And further, 'change for the sake of change' is always bad? It depends.

Sometimes people just need a new voice, new plan and a new direction.

Thats not change just for the hell of it.

And for the love of God man! Turn your phone signature off! We live in a society!

[Vinny01]

Treliving has completely retooled the roster he inherited and only Backlund and a broken down Monahan remain.

2 blockbuster trades have landed him his new top duo of Lindholm and Huberdeau. One came as a promising 23 year old and developed into a star player worth twice his cap hit and the other comes as the 4th highest scoring player in the league over the past 4 seasons and is an elite player signed to a top money extension.

The blueline has been completely restructured over the past 4 years. Giordano, Brodie, and Hamonic, and Hamilton were the core of the team that was replaced by 2 homegrown Dmen in Andersson and Kylington. He was able to trade for Weegar, Hanifin, and Zadorov while signing Tanev to build a deep and top blueline in the league

After years of failed coaching hires and goaltending he has solidified both with Sutter and Markstrom.

This is a completely different team than anyone saw coming back in 2014, or even 2017.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Virtually all of us could make posts about what awesome people we are, but most of us don't because at the heart of it, we are smart enough to recognise that we're not actually all that special.

Speak for yourselves. I have profound delusions of mediocrity.

[Moneyhands23]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Treliving has completely retooled the roster he inherited and only Backlund and a broken down Monahan remain.

2 blockbuster trades have landed him his new top duo of Lindholm and Huberdeau. One came as a promising 23 year old and developed into a star player worth twice his cap hit and the other comes as the 4th highest scoring player in the league over the past 4 seasons and is an elite player signed to a top money extension.

The blueline has been completely restructured over the past 4 years. Giordano, Brodie, and Hamonic, and Hamilton were the core of the team that was replaced by 2 homegrown Dmen in Andersson and Kylington. He was able to trade for Weegar, Hanifin, and Zadorov while signing Tanev to build a deep and top blueline in the league

After years of failed coaching hires and goaltending he has solidified both with Sutter and Markstrom.

This is a completely different team than anyone saw coming back in 2014, or even 2017.

The prospect pool is also in a fairly good place. If we can add some more talent coming through the system we could be very competitive this next 3-4 years

[Flamescuprun2018]

Replace him with who exactly is perfectly on point. I cannot think of anyone right now that is waiting in the wings with more experience or dedication to the job.

His tireless work well into August is reason enough for me to remain a firm supporter.

Heck, NHL Network has been thanking BT all week for his moves. Otherwise there would be no NHL news to talk about. The rest of the GMs are well into R and R season.

BT's work ethic is elite. He has made some blunders along the way. But for me he has figured out many of his blindspots by finally hiring a solid coach, avoided panic deals on UFA day and securing a starting goalie.

If we can cure him of giving away 4th and 5th round picks at trade deadline for borderline 4th liners or 7/8 dmen. He would be perfect. But depth is depth in a playoff run.

If we do finally blow this core up in 4-5 years. It would be super interesting to see how he gets maximal value from that dismantling that sets up for a faster rebuild. Unfortunately I suspect our fanbase would not allow him the privilege of leading that transition. BT works the phones with every team and typically extracts the most value possible from a trade.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Mull

As for something "bigger" - aren't we one top 6 forward away from being cup contenders- if we aren't long shot already? Getting a top 6 isn't easy, but in sports this is as good as sometimes you can get.

Our offense is one star forward down from last season, and looking at the playoffs, we were more like a long shot then than a contender. We even took a step backward in playoff experience when we switched Gaudreau to Huberdeau.

Doesn't mean we'll suck, and a lot could change between now and May. There's cap space, there's some prospects, there's Weegar, and if Markström doesn't have a meltdown that would make a huge difference.

But no, I don't think it's realistic to think we're a top 6 forward away from being contenders. At least not on paper, which is what all we have in August.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Itse

Our offense is one star forward down from last season, and looking at the playoffs, we were more like a long shot then than a contender. We even took a step backward in playoff experience when we switched Gaudreau to Huberdeau.

Doesn't mean we'll suck, and a lot could change between now and May. There's cap space, there's some prospects, there's Weegar, and if Markström doesn't have a meltdown that would make a huge difference.

But no, I don't think it's realistic to think we're a top 6 forward away from being contenders. At least not on paper, which is what all we have in August.

That'd be a refreshing change of pace.

[Flamescuprun2018]

Personally when we do go full rebuild. I could see BT as POHO and Conroy or other BT apprentice as the new GM. Just worry Conroy would spend more time chatting with other GMs than actually getting to specifics of a deal.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Moneyhands23

The prospect pool is also in a fairly good place. If we can add some more talent coming through the system we could be very competitive this next 3-4 years

I would be shocked if any reputable ranking of NHL organizational prospects would have Calgary’s prospects in the top 25 in the NHL right now.

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by PuckSlap

As a the co owner of a small business, I guarantee you that if we had hired a manager that couldn’t improve the business or increase productivity, we wouldn’t keep them around.

In the hockey world, losing games, players and a fanbase, is the same as losing money.

The flames just lost their top two players. They lost to the competition (oilers) and this already small market, is about to get smaller.

The flames aren’t any better than they were in 2018, they are arguably worse (on paper).

Those are all signs of a poorly run business.

Right now, the flames; in this poor economy, just sank into the red.

But bRad tReLiViNg signed a top 6 player.

Ya, after we lost two of them.

1 step forward and two steps back.

But we won the division!!

Ya, cool story. Then what did they do?

Some of these things are indeed true. And some are indicators of a poorly-run business.

But.

You aren't the owner of this business and that owner may have very different goals to yours. Perhaps (and for sure I am guessing / thinking / speculating / supposing here) his goals are to:
- be reasonably competitive each year
- keep a decent fan/STH base, and keep them "reasonably happy"
- keep salaries on the team just to the cap
- keep salaries in management and operations at a given dollar amount
- make money on the farm teams
- increase the value of the franchise in the event of a sale

Arguably, BT has done all of those, so if that was his mandate as GM, he will continue to have his job. Nothing to do with how YOU view a poorly-run business.

If you want to discuss ONLY how the Flames operate as a hockey (non-business) club, that may well be a different story.

[taxbuster]

And...somewhat off-topic, but apparently I missed this somewhere..what's the deal with Lanny McDonald and making lots and lots of money? (And what does that have to do with BT?)

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Flamescuprun2018

Personally when we do go full rebuild. I could see BT as POHO and Conroy or other BT apprentice as the new GM. Just worry Conroy would spend more time chatting with other GMs than actually getting to specifics of a deal.

My problem with Treliving is that I don't think he has a particularly good eye for talent or hockey teams.

He's a very hard worker and a good negotiator, so he can get things done when you present him a problem that's straightforward like "sign this guy" or "trade this guy". That's his best work. This of course is likely quite a lot of what a GM does.

However, when facing complicated challenges like "make moves that make the team better", "consider the long term impact of trading draft picks vs making small short term improvements to the team", "evaluate the value of this UFA for your team vs cap space", "make the call on whether to pull the trigger on this trade or not", or "pick what kind of a team you want to build and go for that", I think he's mostly kind of bad.

In short, IMO he would be a terrible POHO.

In fact now that you mention it, I would love for the Flames to find someone to be the POHO above Treliving, to help give him that vision. Alternatively, maybe Sutter can provide him with a vision of what the team should be and what it needs.

In any case, I think someone other than Treliving needs to bring the vision and deep understanding of hockey that separates the great from the pretty good.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Itse

He's ... a good negotiator,

I am not sure he is. Yes, the Lindholm contract turned out fortunately, but typically he either overpays aging free agents on both term and aav (including Huberdeau, digned to age 38), lowballs guys who end up walking for nothing when they don't feel Treliving valued them well (Gaudreau, Brodie), strongarms and lowballs guys on aav and yet gets burned with shorter term rfa deals than what those players should be signing (Gaudreau, Mangiapane, Kylington, the list goes on), or just throws a fit when things don't go his way in negotiations (Kulak).

You look across the league and other GMs have signed their players to far more enviable deals.